Grips are part of the pistol, methinks
 

Well, I finally purchased my 1st Luger. Itâ??s a 1940 Mauser 42 code in excellent condition. I couldnâ??t be happier except for one thing. The written description stated â??all matching pistol partsâ?�. What would you define as pistol parts? I thought all of the parts would qualify. However, in this case grips are not part of the pistol.

There are two of them and they are made of wood. They even are numbered. Each one has a number that does not match the other or the pistol.

My question is â??What does this do to the value?â?�. Non-matching magazines are expected but this? Do I have a real clean shooter now?

What would you pay for a Luger in excellent condition without the original grips? I paid $1,500. I guess I could always look for a pair of 81 numbered grips. My chances should be 1 in 100 of finding them. You can consider this an offer to buy 81 numbered grips in excellent condition.

The dealer had a 3 day return policy with right of return nullified if the pistol was fired. Itâ??s well past 3 days and Iâ??ve fired it (and it was fun to).

Thanks in advance for any input.

Michael

Michael, it is "nice" to get matching grips, but to me, grips of original timeframe is acceptable. I think the vast majority of collectors would like to have matching grips, but I think a lot of collectors do not consider that a non-matching item?

The ones now on the luger, are they numbered like a serial number or odd numbers? I had one that had no number, but were E/655 stamped and it was stamped very lightly.

Ed's 2 cents, welcome to the fraternity, you'll be lucky to stop at one...

Michael -

While I can't disagree with Ed, I feel that the seller should have informed you that the grips were strays before selling the gun as a "matching" Luger. While that description might be marginally correct, legally speaking, it is clear that his description led you to an improper conclusion. I would expect better of an honest dealer.

Luke

Michael,
I think you got a bad deal and I would not do business with this guy any more. In Luger parlance, at least in my 40+ years of speaking and hearing it, all matching is EVERYTHING excepting the magazine. Mags are assumed to be miss-matched and when they do match, a premium is in order. Grips, like any other piece part, are expected to match.

The only legit exception would be armorers field replacements which would be waffened or have a similar acceptance stamp but bear no SN.

My zwei pfennigs,
Tom A.

Ed, "nice" is not the deal here, $1,500.00 for a "matched" 1940/42 is top dollar. Mike should have gotton what he paid for, not a mis-matched gun, and Mike will now learn the lesson the very hard way...there are bolsters/fakes and cheaters out there and Mike I am very sorry. This is not a fun thing anymore, every week there are these storys of buyers being taken by sellers who one are out for the buck....and how many more that we do not hear of. And there is the paying of return postage that buyers must bear, yet it was not the buyer who laid false clams...Mike do tell us, or by PM too me, who was the dealer.

Oddly enough, I just sold a 1940 42 made luger that was matching except the grips + mag. I clearly disclosed the grips issue and sold the luger for about 600. Finish on the piece was great and the metal was unbonkered ...and matched to the pin.

At 1500... either I sold too low with high ethics or this other dealer sold way to high with low ethics ... or somewhere in the middle...

Michael, I agree with Tom A. I also think you should try to find a set of E/655 Armorers Grips as Ed suggested. They will cost a bit, but would put your Luger in a lot better light. Not as good as matching grips, but a bunch better than you have.

Of course, some Military Mausers didn't have numbered grips, unfortunately the 1940 Lugers did.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Frank:
<strong>Of course, some Military Mausers didn't have numbered grips, unfortunately the 1940 Lugers did.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hi Frank, <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />
Off the top of your head could you advise which of the Third Reich Lugers should have numbered grips.
:confused:
I know you told me my 1939 Code 42 was one that didn't.
Thanks,
Mike <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />

I guess that I am "out of touch", I didn't realize that non-matching (not period grips), caused it to be mismatched? At least to these collectors here and I respect several who have posted (others I don't know well <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )

Point is, I learn something new every day, not always what I want to hear, but I still appreciate the lessons gentlemen, :)

Michael, You was robbed! I agree with Tom and PoliceLuger...The grips should match to make it all matching and command such a premium price.

I just finished reading The Dutch Luger and again I cannot stress how important it is to read good books. The Forum is a wonderful tool to protect out interests and pocket books but quality publications alert us to many things all at once.

When we shell out this kind of money it is important to do our homework.

Frank has some good advice too about the armorers grips if you can find a good pair priced reasonably. What might make it more palatable is to sell the old pair when you find the armorers pair. Good luck! Jerry Burney

E-Mail the name of the dealer to those that requested his identity. He is most likely following this. He is a victimizer. (trickster, cheater, sharper, swindler)

Hi Mike, Okay off the top of my head. As I said in an earlier post K-Dates and G-Dates are a crap shoot. Some are numbered and some aren't. Next the 1936 Lugers are mostly NOT numbered. The 1939 Code 42 Lugers are mostly NOT numbered, but the 1939 S/42 Lugers ARE numbered. The rest should be numbered except the black bakelite, which are not numbered. This applies to Military Mausers. Hope this helps. :)

Mike, If the mismatched grip "numbers" that you mentioned are only single digits and are not alined to be read from left to right when grip is in it's normal position, these may just be an inspector's number, and you may indeed have correct unserialized grips. TH

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Frank:
<strong>Hi Mike, Okay off the top of my head. As I said in an earlier post K-Dates and G-Dates are a crap shoot. Some are numbered and some aren't. Next the 1936 Lugers are mostly NOT numbered. The 1939 Code 42 Lugers are mostly NOT numbered, but the 1939 S/42 Lugers ARE numbered. The rest should be numbered except the black bakelite, which are not numbered. This applies to Military Mausers. Hope this helps. :) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hi Frank,
Definitely does and I thank you.
Unlike Michael, I guess I lucked out on my first & only (so far) Luger.
I think if I am serious about getting into collecting Lugers it's time to heed the advice posted here and on other parts of this forum and invest in some of the reference books out there.
I bought Clawsons book when I started collecting 1911A1's so it makes sense to do the same for lugers.
I want to concentrate on Third Reich era Lugers.
Any book recommendations? :)
Thanks,
Mike

Jan C. Still "Third Reich Lugers" should be your first purchase considering your focus.

Hi All,
I don't believe it.....
I have just posted this question on Jan's forum...!!

I only have eight Lugers in my collection at present and i have just looked at all my grips....
Not one of them has a WaA stamp and some have numbers, some do not, and none of them match the pistols........ :(

I suppose grips and mags are the pieces that would most often be replaced. Mags being droped/lost and grips being broken, chiped or cracked.

Thanks to the members for the info.

Regards,

Steve.

Well, Steve, I imagine that Jan will find this funny, as I asked him about this at length this morning, as I too was under the impression that MANY grips simply are not marked with the serial number, and have not seen (or remember) manuals that require marking on DWM or Mauser grips?

Another thing I find interesting is the ole "armourer's / spare parts" as it is hard for me to believe that, that many spare parts were replaced. I wonder how many factory mistakes are attributed to armorer replacement parts (I know, let alone the many replaced bubba armorers).

Ed

Thanks Guys,

I think shame on the dealer for the misleading "matching PISTOL parts" and shame on me for not checking it out throughly when I received it. I named the dealer to those who asked. If anyone knows where I might find E/655 Armorers Grips or nice grips with "81" please let me know.

Also, the grips I do have both have two diget numbers. I guess I'll sell them if I find matching grips.

In the meantime I bought a nice pair of Repro grips from CMR International. They were cheap, fit perfectly, and have nice checkering. I finished them with Pilkington's Classic Red/Brown finish and they look beautiful. If the grips are incorrect I figure that they should be beautifully so.

Thanks again

Michael

Well Michael, I will address some of this by PM. But I would try with the dealer too work something out, and at the least you know LF is here too help with your next Luger...and Ed I have always wondered if there where all these armouers out there running around replacing parts? Has anyone ever identified at least say a large tool/parts box that an armour would have? I really think too much has been places on "armourer's" than was documented. And how heavly was the gun used prior too needing a part replaced. While I seldom if ever shoot Lugers, and nothing from my collection/investment, there are many here that shoot thier Lugers, are thay replaceing parts as often as we are incountering "armour" replaced parts in the collecting field...how much was a Luger fired during even 4/5 year of war. Several months ago I got in my shop a 100% matching 1917 Erfurt, by the looks of the bore,and the way the gun was beat too death, it had been shot thousands of rounds...and mostly by the family that owned it, but none of the parts had ever been replaced??..long way around, I guess what I want too say is do you feel that the "armourer's replaced" is a way of hidding, or getting around a Luger that is not 100%. thanks

I have seen pictures of a tool kit, it appeared to have just about everything except for a frame and barrel! Seriously it contained a large amount of parts, and I imagine it is like e-bay, no one wants to say in an e-bay ad; oh I found this old Luger Holster at a yard sale for $2.00, how would you like to buy it for $150! No, they say, bought from the Vet or bought at an estate sale / auction... So, I bet that many parts are from parted out guns, from the thousands of parts left over and hauled away after each war and from repro parts. Plus the armorer kits that would have been in many hundreds of units.

Ed

Mike, I agree with John. If your interest is WWII Lugers, then Still's Third Reich Lugers is about as good as they come. I also like John Walter's The Luger Book for all varieties of Luger.

Steve, not all Military Mauser Grips are Waffenamt Marked. Some Armorers Grips and the later E/655 and E/135 are WaA Marked, but not all. If they are numbered, they should have the last two digits of the serial number stamped on the inside surface.

Michael--

Mind if I ask what numbers are on the back of your current grips? Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by John Sabato:
<strong>Jan C. Still "Third Reich Lugers" should be your first purchase considering your focus.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Frank:
<strong>Mike, I agree with John. If your interest is WWII Lugers, then Still's Third Reich Lugers is about as good as they come. I also like John Walter's The Luger Book for all varieties of Luger.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">John & Frank,
Thanks for your recommendations.
I'll check them out.
Mike <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by sharpsman2002:
<strong>Michael--

Mind if I ask what numbers are on the back of your current grips? Thanks.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The right side grip is numbered 24 and the left is numbered 29.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
<strong>I...have not seen (or remember) manuals that require marking on DWM or Mauser grips?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The 1910 Instructions require inspector marking and serial numbering both grip panels.

--Dwight

Dwight -

I recently posted an inquiry about late WW-I Lugers with grip panels which were clearly authentic, but which had no serial numbers, some having a single upper-case letter. For example, I have a pristine (and honest) 1918 which has authentic grips which only have an upper-case "P" on the inside.

The response from Jan Still (and a few others) was that not all of the late WW-I Lugers had the grip panels numbered.

I wonder if anyone else has any information on the possiblilty that DWM got careless about this practice near the end of the Great War.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by policeluger:
<strong>...and Ed I have always wondered if there where all these armouers out there running around replacing parts? Has anyone ever identified at least say a large tool/parts box that an armour would have? I really think too much has been places on "armourer's" than was documented. And how heavly was the gun used prior too needing a part replaced. While I seldom if ever shoot Lugers, and nothing from my collection/investment, there are many here that shoot thier Lugers, are thay replaceing parts as often as we are incountering "armour" replaced parts in the collecting field...how much was a Luger fired during even 4/5 year of war...long way around, I guess what I want too say is do you feel that the "armourer's replaced" is a way of hidding, or getting around a Luger that is not 100%. thanks</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
<strong>I have seen pictures of a tool kit, it appeared to have just about everything except for a frame and barrel! Seriously it contained a large amount of parts...So, I bet that many parts are from parted out guns, from the thousands of parts left over and hauled away after each war and from repro parts. Plus the armorer kits that would have been in many hundreds of units.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Howard,

Check this link for the Broken Parts Survey, it should answer some of your questions about parts breakage in modern use. It is useful to remember that these guns are 60-100 years old, at the far end of their use cycle, and may not accurately reflect conditions when the guns were new.

Armorer's replacement parts is a topic which has been a back-of-my-mind interest for a while. There doesn't seem to be a lot of common understanding of where replacement parts came from (who made them), field armorer operations, how often and what parts were replaced, etc. I've been asking after this topic for a while, anyone who can provide factual (documented) information has my thanks.

Regarding Armorer's Kit contents, Joachim G�¶rtz, in the February 1996 "Auto Mag", reported the army list of parts available to armorers for field repair, and noted that barrels and receivers were not included, that barrel and receiver repair was an armory-level function (no mention of the frame, so presumably that was at least available). (Although this was a WWII-era edict, I have observed that Weimar and Wehrmacht practices regarding the P-08 tend to follow those established by the Imperial German Army, so I am confident that this practice was current in WWI.)

S/42-marked WWII parts are accepted to be armorer replacements. I have an Erfurt-manufactured magazine with two inspector's stamps and no serial# which was represented to me as an armorer's replacement; grips with inspector stamps and no numbers are also reportedly armorer replacements. These at least make sense to me.

But I also think that ignorance (or lack of information--to say it nicely) and wishful thinking cause owners to invoke this to justify a non-matching gun.

The logic would be, I guess, that field armorer work (or armory depot work) is at least "authentic", whereas parts replacement after the gun passed from Army (or Police) jurisdiction simply reduces a Luger's condition. I must admit to some agreement with this.

--Dwight

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Dwight Gruber:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
<strong>I...have not seen (or remember) manuals that require marking on DWM or Mauser grips?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The 1910 Instructions require inspector marking and serial numbering both grip panels.

--Dwight</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dwight, I was under the impression that this was for ERFURT only (from the 1910 manual), and thus may or may not pertain to DWM or Mauser. I do not know this exact citation and will gladly look it up. But I do know that the manuls also state that items will be marked in many areas. Examples from manuals (possibly not the 1910 manual) are that grip screws will be stamped, however you see Erfurt screws stamped, but do you see DWM or Mauser? Erfurt followed to the letter of the manual, but DWM did not.

I was also told that it has been observed that about 4 out of 5 guns was stamped with the serial numbers on the grips and not EVERY gun. Since this was from a well-known collector I figured this was how many collectors also believed, so was a bit taken a-back when the majority on this forum stated otherwise?

Ed

correction to what I wrote above. But grips bear seriual numbers on about 4 of 5 original DWM or Mauser military Lugers (one of five does not bear serial numbers) It varies by date.

Dwight,

A couple of years ago, a collector in the Philadelphia area auctioned on eBay a wooden crate (chest) that was described as an armorers spare parts kit. It was compartmented and contained spare parts for both k98 Mausers and P.08 pistols... the chest was complete with many parts and IIRC included a couple of magazines that were marked S42... I have a photo of this box somewhere, but can't guarantee that I will be able to locate it, but if I do, I will post it for you.

OK, so s/42 are replacement parts, I guess it is just that I feel that a lot of re-numbered/patched together guns are being passed off as "armour work". Try too make something look right that isn't. I'm still out on this, and yes and thanks Dwight on the survey, I was part of it. On grip SN'ed, why would every fifth be numbered and rest un-munbered, does not make sense too me?? I have a few non police Lugers Imperial era, all have numbered grips, I would think anything less is not 100% matching/correct...then again it is what we want too buy, shoot, what ever, its just I collect with the end result being something too sale with out making excuses. I guess I am really into investing and not shooting...I once had a buyer at the Great Western show about 30 years ago walk away form one of my Lugers because it did not have a matching clip, it left an impression on me too seek out only matching guns for collecting/investing...not sure if I am right or wrong but I do love the Lugers.

Sorry, the every fifth was an approx that was more of a feeling. My point is that I have been told that not all grips are categorically marked.

If I may quote part of what Jan Still wrote on his forum (further information on his forum):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Erfurt grips are always serial numbered.
Imperial DWM grips are not always numbered.
Mauser grips are not always numbered.
Simson grips appear to be all or almost all numbered.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">So, since I was relying on information from talking to several collectors last spring, this was my assumption on grip markings:
Some are marked, but many were not marked to start with.

But I could see that many collectors on the forum do not necessarily agree with this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Ed

Hello Mike

You might want to look at these grips...

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=13698217

(As usual...I have no connection with the sale of these luger items...)

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

I have a Luger...S/42 1938 F/S on GA(Shameless plug)....one of the grips has S/42 stamped on it as per photo....1st grip I have seen like that....Peter.. http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mvc733f.jpg

Ed,

As I understand it, the 1910 Instructions appertain to -all- P-08 procured by the army. Erfurt, being a Government armory, followed the instructions to the letter. Simpson followed suit. DWM (and Mauser) did not bother with inspector's marks. Educated speculation has it that, as private companies, they did not feel bound by this requirement. Why, and why the Army inspectors permitted this deviation, is unknown.

DWM (and Mauser) did, it seems, hew closely to the serial# requirements. One could wonder if this was because of the functionality aspects of matching parts.

Howard,

Your determination to invest only in detail matching guns--grips (and magazines??) included--is certainly laudable. I agree that, until armorer/armory practices are clearly understood, a Luger advertised as an "armory rework" is suspicious.

That being said, how do you feel about Vono, Frankenschloss, or HZa marked Lugers?

--Dwight

All are period correct rework proofs and as best I recall all are lacking a sear safety, well perhaps a HZa proof may show up on a correct Wiemar police gun. I have no problem with correct period reworked Lugers, hence Wiemar police guns are my main interest...but I do feel uneasy about the words "armour" field/depot what ever, rework, being used without solid providance too sell a gun. I feel that it is a cover up, too sell to the unsuspecting.

Hang me for a hereticâ?¦but I do not have a big problem with non-matched grips, magazines or firing pins. These parts were most often subject to the rigors of use and were replaced, either by users of the period or the generations of owners subsequent to that time.

Given a Luger in excellent original condition but lacking one or all three of these components with the correct serial number, I am not loathe to honor it for what it is, a testament to time.

I do not condone misrepresentation of a Luger as â??all originalâ?� if it is not. Nor do I ascribe to the fantasy of â??armorerâ??s replacementâ?�, although this is a valid consideration in some cases and should be judged on an individual basis. However, to claim either of these conditions falsely is fraud, and shame upon those who would do so.

I am a collector as opposed to an investor. I do not find fault with those individuals who view their Lugers much as a coin collector would cherish the unblemished example, and expect a return on their investment to reflect their shrewd acquisition of â??perfectâ?� specimens. That is the nature of investments. I would hope that someday the monetary return from my collection would provide a graceful descent into my declining years, but that is not my primary purpose.

I rejoice in the acquisition of a pristine piece and try to adhere to a standard of originality. Otherwise, I would just be an accumulator and not a collector. However, I also am gratified in finding a suitable example for my collection that fills a historical niche, and I am not deterred by less than perfection in what I find. I shudder to think of the opportunities I would have missed to own, and pass on to future generations, representative examples of historic variations that constitute the lineage of Luger development if I had rejected a Luger for mismatched grips, magazines or firing pins. These parts are not important in the grand scheme of things.

To those of us with limited means, I would say do the best you can, buy the best you can and do the research to know what you are buying. We canâ??t compete with the big boys, but we can enjoy the hunt and the scholarship involved. Be diligent but donâ??t be afraid to make a mistake. You will live through it and be the wiser for it.

That is my credo, and I offer it for what it is worth. Good collecting to all and God bless.

Very well said.

Ron, thank you very much for the perspective and the reality check.

--Dwight

I agree with Ron and appreciate his discussion. I feel the same way about Lugers as well as other guns that I personally find equally neat (Colt single actions, original military 1911s, Garands, etc.). I only want good clean mechanically perfect examples, no junk for me. Finally, mine gotta shoot or out they go (I don't want paperweights).