"Boosted" into shooter category? - But look further!
 

:crying: "Militarized"?

A perfectly good Alphabet Commercial...well, used to be.

https://www.proxibid.com/DWM-Luger-3...ation/63950365

Does the Erfurt mag dull the shame? :rolleyes:

Plus the nearly 20% buyers premium!

No thanks!

G2

Did you miss the "SU25" stamp on the right receiver? Several examples came up when I searched and each was in the same serial number range of the g suffix code.

The SU25 stamp has nice halo as does the barrel serial number and the digits on the rear toggle link. The only serious question I have about it is the serial number on the front of the frame. There's no halo and the area where the serial number is stamped appears to have been ground some.

The electro penciled numbers are very neat and while I may be wrong, I think there's more to this Luger than someone trying to fool anyone. Check the short thread linked below.

Doubs is on to something, this is not just "boosted"; but likely a rework of some era. JMHO.

normally I'd attribute this kind of marking to the DDR - it is odd - never seen anything like it. And all of these on-line auctions are higher than most credit cards percents :)

I did a little research in my Gortz & Sturgess red books and there is a paragraph addressing the SU markings on page 475.

To summarize, the SU stamp with two digits between 25 & 40 were used by the Spandau repair depot to mark commercial pistols that were converted to military specs by adding numbers in the military style, or had major repairs or were built up from spare parts. The SU stamp is the H. Za. identification and the two digits indicate the year the work was done.

The subject pistol appears to be a legitimate pistol and not boosted.

posted listing link clearly states that it is in .30 caliber so it was not converted to any German military specs at Spandau repair Depot -

Please go to page 476 in G&S red books. It clearly shows that .30 caliber Lugers were indeed converted to military specs at Spandau repair depot.

I wonder if the description of caliber is correct? The method of numbering is very well done. Perhaps it is in 9mm?

G2

Thanks for the link. I did notice the SU stamp, and had a recollection--albeit fuzzy-- that it is legitimate. What threw me was the electro-pencil work in lieu of number stamp. I agree that the numbers were carefully/skillfully executed.

Thank you for calling our attention to it. I find it to be a very interesting variation of the alphabet Lugers. By researching it, I also learned new information.

I never ceased to be amazed at the collective collaborative effort demonstrated on this forum to carefully study Lugers.
:bowdown:

if converted to German arsenal specs they would be in 9mm + not .30 as is the one in listing - 3 3/4" bbl. ? - the electro pencil marking seem very dubious to me - does not appear to be arsenal quality at all to me -

I dug into my G&S green volumes and found the same information just different page #’s. Interesting information on an obscure Luger variant. Fun to find a pistol like that posted for sale and then dig up facts found in a small corner of a multiple volume reference book to learn it’s authentic. Good catch Doubs most collectors would have missed that one!
Jim

The main thrust of Doub's observations has nothing to do with this pistols caliber. It has to do with the addition of 'military' marks in accordance with military specifications.

The 'conversion' is not one of caliber but one of converting a commercial Luger into a military Luger as per military standards.

Myself I do agree that the "electro pencil marking seem very dubious to me - does not appear to be arsenal quality at all to me - " however I have seen this done on Luger's in the past.

It strikes me as odd that the rear toggle is stamped 20 and then the remaining spots are electro-penciled.

Still something 'fishy' with this gun but I like it. The question to me is if this gun was legitimately altered or unscrupulously altered. I can see both possibilities as being true so back to square zero for me.

As for the 3.75" barrel ... Treaty of Versailles mandates that ... After all Su/25 indicates the alteration occurred in 1925.

Thanks Doubs and schutzen-jager ... spirited debate is a good thing.

This is only my opinion but the electro-pencil work on the subject Luger is better than average. It takes a fair amount of skill to use the electro-pencil and maintain scale. I've used them a few times and by comparison the person who etched that Luger was a Rembrandt.

It would also be interesting to know where the "miliitarized" commercial 30 Lugers were employed. To whom were they issued?

the military specs + standards would have been only 9mm for that arsenal + not .30 - iirc the 3 3/4" regulation was mostly ignored with the exception of some new production , my post 1920 Weimer reworks have 4" -

Except --- there were 30 luger guns used by railroad and other organizations in germany

I knew about the SU - but the inscribed numbers is in no way normal, looks like much later work. Any new numbers at a depot or unit, I have seen were stamped.

Not to mention the Swiss used militarized 30 cal Luger's but yes, I agree Ed, the inscribed numbers is in no way normal and in my mind opens the door to knowledgeable faker's but who knows I was not there and I have seen these carefully inscribed numbers before. It is also possible these numbered Luger's are from the same counterfeiter. Again who knows, Luger's have become a high dollar game and where there's money there is possible deception.

I want to make it perfectly clear that in no way am I counting Doubs theory out, Doubs is one of the most knowledgeable members here and I have learned so much from him here @ the forum. The fact is I am just on a fence with this gun ... I am hoping that Doubs assessment is correct but my spidey senses are tingling. LOL

iirc

they were not military organizations at that time + did not require military specification weapons -

The afore mentioned page 476 of G&S has pictures of two 30 Lugers "militarized" by the Spandau repair depot. The top illustration shows electro-penciled numbers on the extractor and front toggle that match the subject pistol in size, style and location. It is an SU25 marked pistol.

The second pistol is an SU38 stamped 30 Luger converted to 9mm with a Mauser S/42 barrel and the "militarized" numbers are stamped.

It is also pointed out that in 1923/25 there was a clandestine purchase of 3,000 commercial 30 caliber DWM Lugers by the Reichswehr Ministry. The actual order was placed in 1923 for 8,000 30 caliber pistols which were reportedly on hand. A later note indicated that only 3,000 were available and it's thought that the other 5,000 supposedly on hand had been sold to someone for foreign currency cash. A delivery of the remaining 3,000 was made in 1925.

While the Reichswehr Army didn't use 30 Lugers, the police did and many police organizations of that time were clearly paramilitary. I suspect - a logical guess on my part - that at least some of the 3,000 30 caliber Lugers "militarized" by Spandau were issued to paramilitary police units.

It appears that commercial 30 caliber Lugers were acquired and some "militarized" by adding military style serial numbers to the parts by Spandau repair depot. Some remained in 30 caliber while others were converted to 9mm. Some were electro-penciled and others stamped with military numbers. They were also stamped SU and two digits that likely indicate the year.

As the pistol on Proxibid is listed as 30 caliber and no claim is made that it's a rare variation, I don't think that there is any attempt to fool anyone.

Alphabet commercials began with the 'i' suffix. There are no Alphabet Commercials with a 'g' suffix. The subject gun actually has a 'q' suffix.

Looking at various suffix letter charts, it looks like a g to me but you may be correct that it's a q. As I said in my first post, the frame serial number looks suspiciously like the original was scrubbed and a new one stamped. I've never seen an alphabet Luger frame with grind marks on it like that. They have all been smooth. I suspect that a military frame was scrubbed and renumbered.

Reference the railway use.
Long long ago someone presented a railway marked Luger.
It inspired a lengthy thread on "Railroad Lugers."
Several examples were offered.
Probably long unretrieveable.

Sold for around $1500 this afternoon. $1225 plus $226 buyers premium and shipping fees. I would think the 18.5% influenced the buyer, and any other bidders.

G2