1938 Erfurt?
 

Hi,

Hope all is well. I've been a member of the forum for a while, but haven't been on in quite some time. Hoping now to avail myself of the expertise here.

I've come across a Luger that I'm having a hard time identifying because the parts seem to be a mishmash a bit. He is asking a little over $1000. I just wanted to get an opinion, on a number of things if possible. Yes, I will be inspecting it; he just lives 2 hours away so I wanted to have an idea before I go up and actually see it. He is confidant and is willing to let me shoot a mag or two before purchase.

Just so we're clear, I've tried iding it using "The Standard Catalog of Luger", by Aarron Price, 2006 edition (ISBN 13: 978-0-89689-411-2)

Seller says 1938 Erfurt Luger and that by all accounts, he is the 3rd owner (He is in his 70s, got it from a friend also in their 70s who got it in Germany from an older German gentlemen). The manual says Erfurt stopped making them in 1918 and was involved in the reworks [consider the double date Lugers], but there is no indication that it was necessarily reworked by Erfurt or anyone else.

Is there a reason that the bolt block/extractor would be replaced with one 20 years older?

Opinions on general appearance?

Next, I'm having trouble with the proof marks and I'm hoping that someone out there can ID them. Center looks like E/63, and right looks like the Nazi mid-acceptance mark (signifiying '37-'39 make) but I'm not experienced enough to say. Any suggestions? What would the one on the left be and is there a reason it would be a 2nd E/63?

Bakelite grips are indicative of a Black Widow, but the other markers for a BW don't seem to be there. Grip replacement?

The price may very well be fine, or it may be too high, so I'm open to input. My concern is just identifying this. I'm thinking a 1938 Mauser Police issue, but I'm too new to be that specific or confident.

Any suggestions from the experts?

It's a mismatched 1938 Mauser.

Makes sense. Definitely appreciate it. I was wondering about the toggle condition and left side panel. It has a sort of pitted / overly worn appearance. Would that concern you if you were looking for a shooter grade?

Quit the parts mix Military Engineer :)
The double straight eagle/63 and mid era Nazi proofs marks are correct for a 1938 Luger.
The Erfurt toggle is an add on/repair and off a much older Luger.
The grips are not from this 1938 gun and may be from a BW, which this gun is not.

As long as it all works it could be a good shooter but make sure you check the bore and have a good look around for cracks anywhere on the gun before firing.

No ... it would not bother me and since its a shooter the pitting is easily fixed if it bothers you that much

Just my humble opinion so don't shoot the messenger please

Thanks much. I didn't think it was a BW, but since the toggle is mismatched, there's no way to tell for certain.

On the toggle replacement....was that something common to Lugers? I heard that extractors tended to be an issue, but bolt blocks?

Thanks again,
Mark

And no...I don't shoot messengers.

There are tremendous forces applied to the Lugers toggle assembly when fired.
Over time this can lead to cracks forming on toggle joints, springs, breech blocks, firing pins etc.
So in a well used Luger, particularly during wars toggle, extractor and spring replacements were common ... not so much a concern in a weekend shooter but it still happens.

Again just my humble opinion.
Be safe and have fun. :thumbsup:

P.S. - thanks for not shooting me

That IS a lot of money for such a mismatched shooter, in my experience.
I would hope the seller will demonstrate that it fires safely, before you take possession.
But, if it works as advertised, you should enjoy it a lot.
That gun has already been through a lot!

I did tell the seller I wanted to shoot it and he didn't hesitate. He told me it shoots fine and is allowing me to shoot a few mags through it.

I'm also going to do a tear down and inspect, especially since the bolt block is different and 20 years older.

The manual I was using had prices range from $650-$1200, so that wasn't helpful much, especially since I'm guessing it was a Mauser.

I have a 1938 DWM mismatched shooter myself Military Engineer.
It also had a deeply pitted and gouged 'skirt' and trigger plate much worse than yours.
A little TLC and I think it looks pretty good.
Tell you what ... I wouldn't sell it for the world.
It has an awesome clean bore with excellent rifling and shoots spot on target with tight groups.
I love it. :)
https://i.imgur.com/eOyNvuP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FnGmSSH.jpg

If this parts Luger has a good bore and functions 100%, then it would be a good shooter for you. That price is maybe a little high, unless it comes with a holster and a few mags. Enjoy!!

I see a stamp adjacent to the canon serial number and on the frame below the takedown lever - looks like four touching circles forming a square. Are the grips "black widow" grips or are they VOPO grips? Could the stamp be an East German mark? Looks like the Erfurt toggle link has the serial number X'ed out. Could this be a VOPO Luger?

KFS

It's a Vopo, but the grips are not the typical East-German ones.

The side plate is East German new manufacture.
Check if the barrel is crown/N proofed at the bottom.

I never even checked to see if it was a VOPO. As far as the grips go, I'm not certain which grips they are. I'm going to check.

I texted back and forth a bit with him today...he said he has not one but two matching magazines. Serialed and they are a matched set. We'll see. They're period correct, with aluminum bases and he indicated they are stamped the same way.

I'm curious about how one knows that the side plate is new, East German manufacture?

I also noticed the little dots forming a square on the frame and upper receiver. I didn't see anything about that in my manual, so does anyone have any idea on that?

I just looked...did you mean a "Vono Rework"? If so, the receiver is not stamped such.

If you did mean VONO, can you give me some insight into what that means?

VoPo - Volks Polizei - East German state police

Remember, it's in the nature of the Germans to waste nothing.

Parts from any era or manufacturer could be hand fitted during a repair or refurbishment.

If it shoots well, enjoy it as a great shooter with a little mixed heritage.

Download our FAQ PDF document. You'll enjoy the reference material.

I will do that. Thanks. Question for you: Is the refeence material I've been using reliable? It's listed in the original posting.

Where might I find it? I was looking for it...but I'm new to the site, so I'm not sure where to look.

FAQ is in the menu on the right hand top of any page bro ... here is the link.
http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=13121

Enjoy ... its excellent source reading :)

The little dots are peened out East-German markings. They were removed after import in order to disguise the fact the guns were imported from a prohibited source at the time.

Interarms imported several batches, paid for in US currency that was much needed by East-Germany at the time. The guns were basically smuggled across the iron curtain in the 1970s.

Hi All,

I will be taking the Luger for a test shoot Monday and if all is in order, will likely pick it up. I really hope he's right on the money with both matching mags. That will be awesome, even if it is a parts gun.

Mark

Hi Mark,

It's an East German rework, that is a different level than a 'parts gun'.

If the magazines are also East German. They should be marked with 2/1001 on the spine and marked 1 and 2 on the bottom, with the serial number.

Good luck.

Vlim,

Thanks much. I'll take all of that into consideration. What did you mean by a different level? Does that mean it a better or worse gun than a "parts gun"?

So IF:

---mags are marked as you describe,
---pistol shoots accurately and functions,
---it turns out to be a VoPo based on the visual inspect,

Would $1100 or so be a reasonable price based on condition you see in pics? If not, what would your experience suggest I counteroffer that is fair?

I've read several places "buy the gun, not the story" and I agree, so i thought I would ask what a fair price would be. I don't want to miss an opportunity, but I also don't want to shell out more than is reasonable.

Thanks for everything!
Mark

Hi,

I would value a Vopo above a 'shooter grade parts gun' and 1100 would not be unreasonable to me.

Here is what I think and the following opinion is what I would do and does not apply to anyone else so act accordingly.

I agree with Vlim ... a 'shooter grade parts gun' ... is a perfect description of this Vopo gun.
While many Luger aficionados find the 'Vopo' ugly its the history behind the gun that makes the Vopo collectable and important IMO.

There are distinct eras in German history marked by changes to the Luger's story.
Imperial Germany, the Weimar Republic, Nazi Germany and the East German Democratic Republic(Vopo era).

I think that $1100 dollars is not too high a price as I believe these guns will only increase in value.
I also believe that Luger's are better than money as money just sits there while a Luger gives you enjoyment every time you see or use it.

It is not as if you will have lost $xxxx dollars, the money is still there retrievable in an appreciating asset.

Appreciate all. So I took the plunge and bought it. Since I bought a second pistol (a Model 19 S&W), the Luger worked out to be about $1000. The date on the chamber is actually 1939, not 1938, so maybe that means something, maybe not as far as history and value.

The two mags have matching serials, although only one has the letter designator to match the pistol frame, ie "xxxx o (15th letter of the alphabet in cursive script)" on mag bottom. The other mag only has the matching 4 digit number. The numbers don't seem to be stamped by the same machine (the numbers are smaller on the matching mag then the other one) but one mag has the 2/1001 on the spine and the other (the one completely matching the gun) has "fxo" at the bottom of the mag body on the side.

Fired 4 x 2 rounds (checked it in 4 magazines including the originals) and it worked flawlessly. Other than the forward part of the toggle train and firing pin, the numberrs all appear to match, though sadly, I forgot to check the bottom of the barrel.

Thank you guys for all the advice. I just like to kbnow the history of little things like this when I buy them...mainly because it ads to the mystery of it all.

Mark

Well done Mark ... I very much doubt you will regret this.
There is something so addictive to the Luger ... the way it fits your hand ... the beauty and grace of the design ... you will enjoy this feeling for years to come.

Spangy,

I will. I have a 1918 Erfurt I got several years ago in partial trade and I love shooting it, so finding this will be a nice addition.

Of the 10-12 folks that work at the indoor range I go to all the time, I think only 3 or 4 even recognize it for what it is. The senior manager there does and he had to wrap it carefully and put it in the back of the safe because he didn't want the rest of the staffers getting too curious about it.

I remember the first time I shot it (the 1918) at the range. One of the RSOs was just staring at me, so I thought I was doing something wrong. I asked him if I was doing anything wrong, and he said no. He was just looking at the pistol. He also said it was the, and I quote: "...sexiest thing he'd seen on the range that week."

Another time, the 2nd A group I am with did a shoot with a group called the "Young Republicans" here in San Diego. It was called their "ATF" night. Each of us in the 2A group brought the most unique thing we had, and I had the Luger and a Vacquero. Guy came up behind me and pointed to one, so I picked up the Vacquero, and he said he was interested in the other one. I turned around, and the Yiddish accent was attached to a yarmulke. Can't make this stuff up.

I asked him if he was ok with it, for real, given the history of the yarmulke and the Luger, and he didn't miss a beat. He simply replied: "I know what it is. Getting to shoot that thing is my f*** you to them". I loaded up the mags and let him have his fun. Every year we do it, he asks me "if I brought it".

I love these pistols for the reasons you mention and more.
Mark

When I picked up the Erma at my local FFL, the young woman (Girl to me but I am old) on the counter said it was the cutest gun she had seen