Erfurt/DWM Parts Luger Project
 

Here is Wombat's old gun project I did from days of yore.
https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net...0e&oe=603E93D8
https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net...44&oe=603EA62D

I believe the frame was from an Erfurt Luger- The frame rail on the right side appears slightly wider than a DWM with less edge bevels. Also the crown over script letter on the left rail by the side plate would be Erfurt I believe. The receiver also Erfurt by the the small Crown over RC on the Receiver as shown below.https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net...6d&oe=603CF94D

Beautiful work as usual by Thor.

An Erfurt frame should also have a crown/letter on the front of the trigger guard.

It's interesting that it appears to have had a hold open added. That's odd for a frame with a stock lug. The directive for the hold open came in May, 1913 while the stock lug directive was in August, 1913.

It's purely speculation, but could the frame have been from one of the pre-production Artillery test pistols? Commercial Lugers were made with the stock lug but only by DWM as Erfurt didn't make commercial guns.

The other possibility, as I see it, is that a repair was done to the hold open and the hole drilled then.

The small acceptance stamp on the left rail just in front of the side plate is a characteristic of a 1916 or later Erfurt.

It was actually a nice example of a DDR reworked P08 a.k.a. a VoPo luger before the rework.

I wouldn't have touched it.

I have to agree with Vlim on this.
To me the raw beauty of the DDR reworked VoPo made this gun collectable in my mind.

While still beautiful after Thor's excellent work I feel the gun has lost an important part of its history.

JMHO

The Folks Polizei refinished it already and it was a parts gun from different Lugers, all I did was add to its history.

Interestingly, they appear on both of my 1914 Erfurt LP-08 Lugers.

Illustrations in Gortz & Sturgess do not show the crown/letter stamp on the left frame forward of the side plate on 1910 and 1911 examples so it seems the practice began later but at least as early as 1914.

Hi Ted, I disagree.

The Vopo is a known and documented example of a government refurbished variation. In this case you did not add to its history, but took some of it away.

My opinion is that is was a VoPo with mismatched numbers and a bad blue job. It still has the same parts, the same numbers and a better blue job. I do not think the VoPo history has been altered, just added to. And it is more likely to survive going forward.
It was offered as an example of a members craftsmanship. It shows that well. I appreciate it being shown.
When an artillery shows up with a ground off stock flange, do we want to leave that alone as part of its history? Lots of decisions to be made on refinishing, and the fact that some folks are now collecting VoPos is just an input in that decision.

Ted's workmanship is not under discussion. It is excellent.

A ground stock lug is the result of poor interpretation of post war US legislation. It cannot be compared to a legit state controlled and organized refurbishment and subsequent re-issue program.

This gun is now a refinished mismatched shooter and no longer a collectable VoPo. And I pity that.

Vlim, I understand your position. Mine position is a VoPo Luger with mismatched numbers and a toggle receiver manufacturer mismatch, cannot be assumed to be a VoPo produced configuration when the original finished configuration has not been seen. Not having seen what it was before it was redone, it is a little difficult to say it was a nice example of an East German rework.

If it was nice, this may have been a questionable call, but no-one has asked what kind of shape it was in or if the mismatched parts appeared to belong the the post WW2 government rework. So, lets have a few facts before we tell somebody they messed up a nice example. I cannot make out the proof marks, the chamber marking or see any evidence beyond the black plastic grips that suggest its pedigree.

Well, I handled quite a few and I see no real signs of it not being a VoPo. The peened out markings on the right side of the receiver point in the VoPo direction, defacement being done by Interarms in the 70s when the first batches were imported.

The grips are also a giveaway, of course.
The overall look of the DDR bluing and the hotchpotch of bits 'n pieces also point in that direction.

Thor changed a hideous re-blue into what it should look like
Great job.

Why would you want to preserve a crappy restoration because it was done under government auspices.

One bad rework followed by a very good rework.
The gun had been restored anyway.

I am not a big fan of the VoPo's cultural contribution to the world
That said I do have and am very fond of my East German Freiberger sextant

I kind of have to agree with Heinz in that I saw no markings or indicators other than the grips and possibly the reblue to identify the Luger as Vopo. If it had been stamped with nice sunbursts/shields/numbers that were not obliterated, I might think otherwise. For anyone who wants a Vopo Luger, there are far better examples out there.

Just my opinion but I think it was an excellent choice for Thor's superb restoration.

Because a government arsenal does not restore. A government refurbishes, a totally different game.

Plus this gun was not restored. It was refinished. Also not the same thing.

I agree with Vlim’s basic point on preserving government refurbished guns. I am actually a fan of guns that show service in two wars. I have a 1917 Enfield and a 1917 S&W 45 with rework marks and replaced parts. I would not mess with either of them.
My point was, if you do not know the condition it was in before the reblue plus whatever else was done to make it work, you should not presume the new work degraded the gun.

I see two "before" pictures in the first two posts- or else I'm badly mistaken.

I have to agree with Vlim, it was a legitimate variation before;now is is a pretty luger.
It is entirely the owner's prerogative to do whatever he wants to to the pistol.

Every original pistol that gets refinished only makes those left a little scarcer. Since "Vopo" lugers are relatively plentiful, no real harm done-
but if it were a truly "rare" luger- I'd be totally torqued! ;)

I looked at it on the computer instead of the cell phone. All the charm of a Chinese Mauser but likely original. Now it is a pretty shooter.


I stand corrected.

Vlim, I could get into a whole conversation about semantics; restore, refinish, refurbish.

I will settle for I am a shooter who happens to own a Luger (or 2)
You are a collector who probably knows more about Lugers than I will ever know

Different values, and I appreciate your knowledge

The East Germans did the Luger no favors. It's ugly. Those who want to collect ugly defaced Luger's are welcome to them. More for them, none for me.

It is a parts Luger from Erfurt frame, DWM toggle, no collector value at the start IMO

Sorry Ted, you are wrong here. But I have explained it already, no need to go through this discussion again.

Next time someone asks you to redo a VoPo, send me a message. I'd be happy to offer advice on whether or not to redo it.

How do I say this delicately to everyone..friends, members, fellow mods? As a craftsman artist and presevationist ,the only person I have ever consulted with about advice on "whether or not to redo it" is my client who is willing and able to pay for it. Granted I make my meager living bowing to the wishes of my patrons but channeling permission to restore a precious piece of history through a third party is pompous on the 3rd party's part. Quite frankly, it is no one's business but mine. I don't need any 3rd party advice and I am willing to bet, neither does Ted.

And that is exactly the way history gets destroyed every time.

Are you equating Ted and Jerry with the Taliban and ISIS?
There are attempting to restore it to how it looked when new, not mindless destruction.

There are a very few historical items in (almost) perfect condition, I agree they should not be touched.

But an ugly mess - just because some Totalitarian government has refurbished does not fall into that context IMHO.

Thor, Jerry, and G.T. are my heroes

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate their craftsmanship, but at the same time I strongly believe some items should not be touched.

Another example is the 'remodification' of Norwegian P08 holsters. The Norwegian army captured large numbers of German P08 holsters and modified them by installing belt hangers that allowed them to use the holsters with US GI style belts.

This modification was done by the Norwegian army and is part of the holster's history. When you remove the GI belt hanger and re-install German Style belt loops, you are left with a holster that is neither German nor Norwegian. And in my opinion worthless.

But if you like 'pretty' guns without historical value, be my guest. But don't mistake it for a restoration. Also, educate yourself before touching an item.

Part of being a good and professional restorer is the ability to say 'no' to projects that uneducated clients offer.

Some things are so horribly defaced they cannot be properly restored and Norwegian P08 holsters are a prime example. The toe cut off the end of a Luger holster or a "cowboy cut" of the front to draw the pistol easily are some more. These are layers of history destruction. The Norwegian's destroyed history by putting on an ugly GI belt hanger just as the East Germans destroyed history by "refurbishing" pistols. My preference is to not look at ugly modifications no matter who did them. For that matter, I don't even like the ugly holsters they started making after 1945.



"Part of being a good and professional restorer is the ability to say 'no' to projects that uneducated clients offer." Pompous attitude.

You are not any kind of professional restorer. I don't work in a government job with a guaranteed income. And I don't consider any of my clients ignorant. History is a fluid in suspension. I have been known to give advice from time to time but if a man owns something and wants to put it in a shredder that's his business.

I think we all can agree that every Luger has a story it could tell if only it could talk.

Sometimes we get lucky and there are transfer papers from a GI 'take home souvenir' spelling out the who, where and why. Other times we rely on proof marks, patina, variations or even simply the date stamped on the gun itself. Still others have history woven into them such as Russian captures (x) and the Volkspolizei VoPo. When we look at a VoPo era Luger we immediately know the later part of its history.

This isn't about whether Thor is an excellent craftsman - we all KNOW he is.

Nor is it about the right of a man to do with what he will to his own property - of course you can.

This is about HISTORY and how a gun came to be what so many of you find to be ugly. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and Vlim and myself can see the beauty in the VoPo BECAUSE of its deep history.

This isn't about German Democratic Republics history alone but the entire German history to date starting on that fateful day when Gavrilo Princip, a Bosnian Serb member of Young Bosnia aka 'the Black Hand', sought an end to Austro-Hungarian rule in Bosnia and Herzegovina by assassinating Archduke Franz Ferdinand Carl Ludwig Joseph Maria of Austria the heir presumptive to the throne of Austria-Hungary on the 28th June 1914. Aka 'the gunshot heard around the world'.

What followed was the 1st world war where Germany came to the aid of its Austrian brothers AS WAS EXPECTED. France and Britain saw its opportunity to remove Germany from its economic and technilogical throne by declaring war on Germany.

The end result was the treaty of Versailles signed in June 1919 at the Palace of Versailles in Paris. The armistice was signed on 11 November 1918, ended the actual fighting.

This treaty signed by what came to be known as 'the November criminals' stuck in the craw of Germans who thought that the war was still winnable and that the treaty of Versailles was a political 'sell out' that would and did hobble Germanys industrial might.

This resentment festered most specificaly in a young soldier in this 1st world war named Adolf Hitler. The 2nd world war blossomed out of the 1st world war. Had the treaty of Versailles been an even handed docuement more in keeping with fair play instead of a docuement intending to destroy Germany forever the 2nd world war most likely would never have happened. Nor would the Paris Peace Treaties (French: Traités de Paris) signed on 10 February 1947 following the end of World War II in 1945.

Thus East Germany, officially the German Democratic Republic came into being - the remmnants of a country sliced in 2 by politicians.

The VoPo Luger is an important historic reminder of a specific time in Germany's history and as such should IMO be left alone.

This is only my opinion and Vlim's as well I asume but thats all it is and all it was meant to be ... this bickering has nothing to do with Thors restoration capabilities AT ALL.

I only wish that Vlims knowledge and insight into Luger history and its preservation was as respected as Thors ability to preserve the physical.

I agree that any Luger with historical provenance should be left alone. I do not agree that Thor's works are 'restorations'. They are not. They are beautification projects. Fantasy Lugers, if you like. No production P08 ever looked as good as Thor's works. I doubt if any commercial Lugers looked as good. ;)

But Thor's not taking the guns back to what they were when they left the factory. They're better. :thumbup:

Some don't want better. Some want historical perspective. Following the life of the individual weapon. Maybe it was a bring-back and it's history stopped there. Maybe it went on to become a second-string backup to other more modern arms. Maybe it went to a desperate Mediterranean country who took any arms it could get.

I think it all depends on the present owner. I have several refinished Lugers. And I have two in their original 'unrestored' condition. I like them all. :)

Can anyone help with info on my gpas gun?
 

Can anyone help with info on my late gpas gun? He was highly decorated WWII vet. Story he told me was always the same , he went head to head with German officer and he won.. he took this as keepsake. Would love any credible info on this piece as I am very limited knowledge-wise regarding Lugers. Thanks in advance !

Chad, You really should start your OWN thread about your Grandfathers pistol.

Ok Jerry I will do that, sorry I’m new to forums etc

Chad, it just would focus on your pistol better. Adding to an old post confuses and obscures. Easy to do too.

Thanks Jerry i created new post in the general discussion category, thank you for the guidance ����