Failure to go into battery every time
 

First Luger P08. First post here. :bigbye: Gun guy who usually fixes my own issues. This one has me stumped. :banghead:

I have a 1940 P08 Army Mauser, not all the numbers match, but most.

When I try to cycle rounds (shooting or hand cycling), the toggle doesn't go all the way down some of the time. Out of battery, 1/4 inch. I smack down the top and it s good to go.

I posted on a gunsmthing forum and they gave me the standard advice. New Megar mag, new Wolff Spring, clean and lube. Well, I already bought those.

Swapped out the spring to Wolff heaviest in the pack. Shoot again. It locks back on empty mag.
Still having same issues.

So I have been hand cycling live rounds (wolf, PMC, Remington, Winchester Silver tip, spear gold dot), dummy rounds, German blue plastic rounds, trying to debug, but....
All seem to have issues when hand cycling, except the blue plastic ones. But after I hand cycle a couple times, I swear they feed more often.

Is this just ammo issue OR....????
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
:banghead::banghead::banghead:
:banghead::banghead:
:banghead:

Could be, singly or in combination:
-Dirty or damaged chamber, or something stuck in there
-striker spring too strong
-since it is not matching, headspace may be tight
-bent rails or other friction slowing down return to battery- you should not have any problem
hand cycling, but take out the striker. If the problem goes away- you know what it was/is.
If not it is much safer!
-bent or too strong ejector
-too strong or long extractor spring, or stuck extractor

Need any more ideas?

Welcome to the board.

Also be sure when hand cycling to have the action pulled completely open and let it go so that it snaps shut--no lowering of the toggle knobs. The recoil spring imparts less force the closer it is to battery and depends on the momentum established by allowing the fully extended action to close sharply.

I recently had the exact same problem and traced the issue to the extractor, it was aftermarket. Installing an original extractor instantly fixed it.

I'd suggest you tell us which parts are matching/supply some photos. You never know, some guns have been fixed when photos were posted.

Don's advice is excellent. Things must of course eventually be tested at the range but I use inert rounds as much as possible.

Fixing Lugers is much easier when you can swap parts with or inspect a correctly functioning example. You might disclose your location, perhaps there is a member near. Most gunsmiths don't know Lugers, you are typically on your own to fix them.

Attachment 81041

Attachment 81042

Attachment 81043

Attachment 81044

Attachment 81045

Attachment 81046

Attachment 81047

Attachment 81048

Attachment 81049

A few things immediately look a bit curious on your photos:

There seems to be a beveled or recessed area on the breech bolt on each side of the extractor near the top front of the breech bolt. This area should not be recessed, someone has done some work.

The extractor should be a numbered part on a byf, with the number visible on top. This extractor is not original to the pistol.

The side of the ejector visible on the outside of the gun should have a uniform appearance. This ejector has some surface issue at front - I can't tell what it is but it doesn't look right. If you compare the right side of your pistol to photos of other pistols you'll see what I mean. I'm wondering if there is a weld.

I'd suggest remove the extractor and ejector and post detailed photos of those parts and the front of the breech bolt from several angles.

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/gun-man...rer/luger/p-08

Removed striker assembly (part 22, 23, 24),
Remington had one issue (high probability it was me)
PMC still sucks. I think it is worse.

Chamber looks good.

I have racked this enough times, if the frame rails or toggle was too tight, I think I would see wear.

Barrel looks original (correct serial number, and the mark on bottom). Being that everything locks up, some of the time, I think the chamber isn't too tight. But I didn't pick up any brass...

And I typed the above, but forgot to sent.

Continued to play with it... Now the remington isn't causing me any issues. I wish I was somewhere I could shoot a few rounds. Or knew someone with another one so I could see one which works.

PMC still sucks.

I'll fix it!
 

Hi RWBlue01, well, I have a suggestion, send it to me, (the top half)and I'll fix and test it! The breechblock is broken at the extractor relief, and I would bet that the receiver is causing some restriction under firing that is delaying or buffering the toggle train under dynamic stress.... It will NEVER wear in! I have a ton of parts, and several test frames to work with... At the very least i can verify and correct if necessary, any problems with the top half?... If you wish to see my references, just search GT or GT Specialties on this forum?... I will do this service for reasonable cost for the parts only, no labor!... My email address is: gctomeks@msn.com Let me know..... best, til....lat'r.....GT...:cheers:

RWBlue01, if G.T, is offering to assist you, run don't walk to your nearest shipper and let him at it. He is a wizard at fixing Lugers and a real pleasure to deal with. He's helped me with numerous issues, I have yet to send him something he couldn't fix.

I second G.T. and his fine work. He'll get your Luger straightened out and working correctly.

You will get no better shooter than one
GT has fixed. Take him upon his offer

You should replace the damaged breechblock. the missing areas serve to retain and limit
motion of the extractor and are a likely source of your problem.

Breechblocks are not inexpensive, but important for function and safety.

GT can do this for you.

I am a little hard headed when it comes to fixing my own guns. I bought it specifically because it isn't a Browning derivative (different). I want to take it to the range one more time before giving up.

Remington continues to feed.
Wolf Classic doesn't.
Wolf Performance doesn't
I know I have some Winchester white box around, but can't find it.

I played with the extractor. It seems to move freely.

Any other ideas?

If I can't get it to work...

100% agree DV .... A long shot but make sure you have a fluted firing pin ... The non fluted is original, due to primer rupture and blow back that would destroy the firing pin and sometimes the toggle. They replaced them with a fluted pin that has a grove to allow gas to escape and this might have accounted for the original breech block damage if it occurred.
And having Dr.GT look @ it is an offer too good to refuse in my book .... good luck M8 :cheers:

I have the flutted firing pin. Thanks

All this taking apart and putting together, I have gone from 15 minutes to less than 5. I feel like I should be speaking german.

Sie sind ein ausgezeichneter Büchsenmacher und Mitglied Herr RWBlue01http://i.imgur.com/NXpGI.gif

I respect this view, I have it myself. However when I started collecting Lugers and shooting them, I quickly learned that the pistol is unique with a learning curve to fixing them, and expert help (sending parts or the whole pistol off) is required at times.

If GT deals with you the way he deals with me, he'll advise exactly what he found, you will learn a lot and be in a better position to fix the next issue yourself. I have now been able to fix several Lugers, and could not have done that without the help of GT/others.

The Luger is a very different handgun. It's action depends on a balanced design, and many of the things that can affect it are hidden from view. Even if you're quite skilled at working on firearms, you'll find the Luger particularly challenging.

Only a very few gunsmiths have the skill to work on Lugers competently. Gerald is one of them.

His offer is generous. You will likely be quite frustrated by the time you decide to take him up on it, or - you could sleep on it and get things packaged up tomorrow.

Sprangy,
That is not the original or intended purpose of the grooves, they are there to collect gunk, dirt, trash and allow the striker to still function.
It is however often repeated "common knowledge" that is just not accurate.

This subject has been the focus of several threads, but if one simply observes the location and extent of the grooves, it is clear that there is nowhere for any trapped gas to go, even with the striker to its full rear position.

Don, while Gortz & Sturgess acknowledge that the flutes had the primary purpose of allowing oil and dirt to flow past the firing pin to prevent build up of residue that reduced the impact force of the firing pin, they also point out that the flutes do, in fact, allow gasses from a punctured primer to bleed off and reduce the rearward thrust of the firing pin that would otherwise cause damage if the firing pin was not fluted. G&S point out that it is a benefit but, as you state, not the purpose for which the flutes were intended. G&S red books, pages 1115 & 1116.

Thanks DV & Doubs :D ... you know I knew that ... I have read exactly what you said elsewhere but sometimes my 70 year old brain misfires and I don't always remember :( These days I often can't remember anything past the last 24 Hrs. ... a combination of old age and the drugs I have to take for chronic pain.

John Walter (The Luger Book p.116) notes that the fluted firing pin was patented by Georg Luger as early as 1893 (DRP 78,406; DRP 90,433) as a method to keep striker-chambers clear of fouling.

Also as we are talking about a 1940 P08 Army Mauser its my understanding that it would have been manufactured with a fluted firing pin anyway as the fluted design was instituted in 1934. Having said that we can't know that the firing pin may have been replaced with a non fluted design in some other repair cycle. :banghead:

so much to know ... so little time.

This post references two Luger firing pin patents: (DRP 78,406; DRP 90,433)

Both German patents are assigned to Georg Luger.

The second patent discusses bypassing gasses. This is a google translation of the first paragraphs of the patent:

"The present invention relates to further embodiment of the gas paths protected by D.R.P. No. 78406, which are used to reduce hazard and counteract the effects of the explosive gases which repel the impact bolts when the latter is caused by shocks as a result of damaged ammunition and the like enter the chamber.

The new facilities are intended to cause the gases, which have penetrated, to flow as freely and rapidly as possible through the gas passages behind the Plate of the impact bolt and into the interior of the chamber. For this purpose, either the plate of the striker is dimension-ed such that between it and the bore of the chamber, a corresponding clearance is formed as a gas path, or is formed on the inner wall of the chamber When the striking pin is bent, whose plate is surrounded, or otherwise any suitable recesses are arranged for the same purpose.

These grooves or recesses can be used alone or in combination with the other gas paths of the impact bolt."

Click on the patent number (above) for a PDF of each patent straight from the German patent registration site. It's a wonderful resource for researching things firearm in Germany. I used it to great impact when working with Mauro and Gerben on the Mauser book recently published.

Nice :D ... Thanks for that mrerick

Doubs,
I know G&S "say" that, but it is a physical impossibility.
"They" got that statement wrong; it just is not physically possible, there is no where for the gas to escape to!:eek:

Marc,
The reference to the fluted, or gapped alignment disc shown in the drawing for the rifle bolt is an entirely different situation, and those channels do lead to an "expansion" area and eventually to the outside of the bolt.

Carefully observe the length of the grooves in the luger striker, and how far they extend, and find where the closest gas "escape" route is- the two do not intersect.
There is a slight possibility that some grooves cut by hand, when an old style striker was modified to include the grooves, "Might" be cut deep enough, and long enough, and in the correct alignment with the sear tab opening to "connect" just a bit-
But that condition is only met if all three requirements were met by accident !

Such a co-incidence was not intended and is not observed in machine/jigged production strikers.

I know the presence of the grooves just begs for the answer to be "gas management", but it just is not so. :soapbox:

Just an addition note, the Finns added a "real" gas escape hole in the bottom of their breech blocks, that hole is far enough forward to allow gas to escape.
Swiss strikers have a flat milled into the front and rear bearing surfaces of the striker to allow gas to pass along the length of the striker and exit the breech block.

Both of these later techniques/modifications do serve to allow gas to escape from the front of the striker in event of a pierced primer.

:cheers:

At a minimum get a new breechblock from G.T. Also, never test a Luger's action with live rounds as you apparently did before Don's advice. I have had two Lugers that fired after releasing the toggle- luckily at the range and pointed downrange. That was no fun, but in one's house could be tragic!

Don, I understand. It's somewhat surprising that the flutes weren't extended past the collar to allow gases from a ruptured primer to escape. I've actually had a FP keeper shear the small lug off when a primer ruptured. I've often wondered if the keeper was made of softer metal for that very purpose.

I also once owned a Finnish M23 that had been modified with a hole in the breechblock to allow gas to escape. A logical and good idea IMO.

Hi All,

I agree with Don's comments and illustrations completely.

If memory serves, Vlim also agreed with us, several months ago, on this exact issue.

Those Finnish master gunsmiths certainly knew what they were doing!!

Luger may have been issued the D.R.P.s, but were they for a Mauser Rifle bolt firing pin design originally; as, strangely enough, Georg Luger managed to have D.R.P.s issued to him on several of Paul Mauser's original rifle designs!

Respectfully,


Sieger

I'm sorry to say but I don't agree with you. There is indeed a way for the gas to escape. It's from the side cut of the breech block.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/attachme...1&d=1604310903

Mind you that you only need to relief enough pressure to prevent the firing pin to act as a piston and go full force backwards. And you know what? It works.

Kurusu,
That is the nearest spot/point for gas to escape, for sure.

A portion of gas can escape around the gap between any style striker and the breech block; but not due to the presence of the fluting cuts - but due to the normal tolerance between the two parts.

As I wrote, some cuts could be long enough/deep enough and could function that way.

Retract the pin all the way and see if you can see the flutes; most of the time one can't, but occasionally a groove does reach that point.

My basic point is that gas relief is not the primary reason or intended purpose for the flutes-which is to provide a place for grease/oil/debris etc- and keep the striker functioning; if they relieve gas it is serendipity at work. JMHO.;)

:cheers:

The basic problem with the "old fashion" firing pin is that oil( if present) will fill that gap and act as a seal.


You don't really need to see the flutes. There are to diameters in a fluted firing pin. the flute go all the way to the "narrow" portion.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/attachme...1&d=1604330950



I really do not know what was the primary reason. But I know it works.:D

:cheers:

Hi,

Don's contention is correct.

Sorry, but fluted or not, a pierced primer will, indeed, cause enough "piston effect" to damage the firing pin retainer or the grooves cut for it in the breach-block itself. This is the reason for most Luger mechanical failures.

This has been my actual, verified, experience gentlemen.


Respectfully,


Sieger

pressure relief
 

Hi to all, although rare, I have had a few encounters with both over pressure, and pierced primer gas leaks with lugers, which occurred over the last 20 plus years when GT Specialties really started to ramp up luger repairs!! First the firing pin gas relief issue. I have had several pierced primers both due to excessive headspace, and/or a corroded firing pin tip. A famous pro football coach once called a ref over to his sideline during the game and said to him, "do you know what NFL stands for?" he quickly followed it up with, "not for long, for you or me you keep making calls like that!" :eek:
The same holds true with the pierced primer / gas relief... Regardless of the pin style, you have approximately 2 or 3 more round to shoot, and all is going to give up into a big pile of useless gun parts! First, the breechblock extractor supports on either side of the extractor lift, then very shortly after, the firing pin drives the retainer out the back of the breechblock, and with that, game over? Now, too stiff of a load, causes other failures, I have had broken receiver pins and also broken (in half) firing pins... plus it just beats a probably already beat luger to death... On every range trip (with different guns!) I check the primer on the first shot... it can tell you a lot, and save you a lot as well.... best to all, til.....lat'r....GT:cheers:

Excellent advice GT ... from now on i will take a good look at my fired 1st round brass for a pierced primer or any other sign of trouble and examine all at end of my session. :thumbup:

Well, I am hard headed, but I have to admit when I am beat. Since my last post, I went out and bought a second Luger P-08 to better understand the gun and what was correct.

So the gun with the issue I will refer to at 1940.
And the new one is 1916.

I am gaining an appreciation to the old armorers and the new guys working on these hand fit guns today. GTI think this gun will need to go to you, but I am not sure if the lower needs to go also.

The breach is not correct. Not sure if issue.
Extractor doesn't look correct. Not sure if issue.
The bullet ramp on the lower and the feed ramp on the barrel. The lower has had material removed. The barrel has not. I am guessing this is where my real problem is. This is beyond my skill set.

Attachment 84462

Attachment 84463

feed ramp mod?
 

Hi RWBlue01, from the chamber pictures you show, the problem could indeed be the feed ramp cut on the barrel chamber lip? The frame looks fine to me, and I think we could do the barrel first and go from there? I could modify the ramp to the correct angle and length and range test it on one of my test frames to insure proper function? My mailing address is:

Gerald L. Tomek
316 West Straford Drive
Chandler, AZ 85225 - 7117

Best to you and yours, til.....lat'r.....GT...:cheers:

Do you want the complete gun or just the upper at this time?

Thanks,

just the upper
 

If I revise it and it works on my frames, it will be good, and if any problem still exsists, it is most likely that the upper will not be the fault...Just the complete upper for now.... best, til....lat'r.....GT...:cheers:

lined?
 

From the picture, it almost looks like a relined barrel sleeve? either way, it can be corrected... best, GT:cheers::cheers:

Have you tried the 1916 to see if it feeds ok? Fired it?

If the 1916 feeds ball ammo, it does not need any work on the barrel ramp.
Barrel ramps are only cut into the barrel, and not into the upper receiver.

The pictures below show a 9mm barrel with its ramp on top;
the next three show three stages in lining a barrel to .30 caliber.
The top picture shows the barrel liner in place, the second shows the .30 luger chamber reamed, and the third shows the finished ramp blended into the original barrel.

:cheers: