First Luger, help needed
 

Thanks for the add, was told there’s a plethora of knowledge here from an ARF member. Recently purchased my first Luger and trying to learn the history of it from the proof marks. The seller said it was inherited, and when he brought it to a gunsmith to get the value he was told it wasn’t numbers matching or original. So He listed it at 825 and I bought it thinking it was a shooter. Several of the members on ar forums agree it’s original numbers matching, so now I don’t know if it’s a collector or if I should shoot it. I did pull the firing pin out last night after watching Simpson LTD video on checking serial numbers and the pin doesn’t have have any markings, not sure if it’s supposed to be that way or it’s replaced.

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Welcome to the forum. Your friend was correct; there are some extremely knowledgeable folks here.

Can you provide a look straight down on the top that clearly shows the date? Also a closer image of the proof marks on the right forward receiver. They look to be what are called "Peace Doves" and a Nazi era eagle.

While the numbers seem to be all matching, the barrel carries two marks that may indicate replacement. One is a Nazi era eagle and the other looks a lot like a Kiel proof house mark.

If the date is 1920, it may be a date stamp or a Weimar Republic property stamp. Seeing the date straight down will help determine that.

The firing pin would be correct for 1920. There were many inconsistencies post-WW1 and the firing pin not having a serial number is likely correct.

It's certainly an interesting Luger and for the price you paid you did just fine IMO.

The receiver date appears to be a 1920 property mark.

KFS

Here are the two photos requested. Let me know if you need more

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I'm almost certain the barrel is a replacement, the 5th photo shows clear clamp or vice marks on the receiver.
Norm

The 1920 is neat enough to be a date stamp and the inspection/proof marks are those used in that time period. The 1920 property stamps were applied at unit level by armorers and are usually not that neatly done.

This is just my opinion. From the Nazi era eagle stamps, I think it was re-proved in the mid-1930's for some reason. It could be for a barrel replacement as Norm says.

So would this have also been in WWII? thanks for the help btw. Ive always wanted a P08 and now im excited to learn the history and places its been.

Unless I'm misreading my source, the eagles make it 1936 ~ 1938.

Can someone point out the "stick wing" eagle? The only eagle I see on the barrel is on the left rear..a down swept eagle. Same as on the right receiver rail.

My mistake. I've corrected my remarks.

"I don’t know if it’s a collector or if I should shoot it."

I shoot all of mine, collectors or not. After all, that's why they were made.

True, but would be upset if I damaged it after it’s made it this long being original. I did order some repo grips, and MecGar mag. One of the sides is a little loose so I don’t want to crack the original grip. May order some other pieces that break and keep the originals safe.

be VERY careful with the grips......at that age, they will snap, crackle, and pop..........there are very nice journeyman replacements available, and as you said, put the set you have now into a safe location....many on this board are truly experts in the various areas of Lugers..... also the care and safe keeping of the wood.............welcome aboard....Tom

I have the impression that police guns of that era didn't necessarily display a chamber date? What I deem to be its typical property stamp seems to wind up in a variety of places in relation to the breech above the blank chamber onto which it's been hand stamped. Admittedly, this one's on there nice and straight, all right, but it's located too far from the breech compared to what I think we'd expect from a chamber date. Here's a link to one on another thread, which obviously gives an extreme example of being located otherwise than a "normal" chamber date. http://forum.lugerforum.com/attachme...1&d=1575414347

I agree about the possibility of a barrel change. I didn't even notice the gouges and was going by the distinctly different color tones, frame v. bbl. Also, the finish of the top, leading corner of the barrel flange is worn less than that of the frame's similar corner? If replaced, it was fairly officially executed, with the new one re-marked, as would have probably been done by an armorer. How about a closeup of the witness marks on the barrel and frame? The vise-gouges hypothesis is suspect to me because there are no corresponding gouges on the other side.

The Parabellum is a robust, durable pistol by design. Nonetheless, things happen that bring to fruition the risks involved when shooting any collectible gun. Break a numbered part on a numbers matching gun, and its value takes a serious hit, as well as its history, perhaps more so. Your gun, though, so your choice.

Aftermarket grips, the MecGar mag are good steps to minimize your risks of this nature. The firing pin and extractor are other numbered parts commonly swapped out for shooting. The relieved/fluted firing pin style adopted around WWII (or maybe earlier?) is reputed to be safer.

Sorry for the dumb question, but what area of the barrel are "witness marks" located?

gTony, welcome to the forum .

I think you have a Weimar era DWM Luger that was rebarrelled in the mid 1930's.

I think that the antler proof mark on the barrel may be from the Oberndorf proof house. The droop wing eagle points to the era of the rebarrel.

Is this in 7.65mm. The photo showing the muzzle is out of focus.

We publish a FAQ PDF document you may find useful. Just follow the FAQ links at the top of every page.

The witness mark is a strike across the barrel base and the receiver to indicate it's correct rotational position when it's installed.

The wood base magazine is also fragile. Try to find a Haneal Schmeisser magazine if you want to shoot the gun. They were made during the 1940's as well as after the war by the DDR (Ernst Thalmann).

The one thing I possibly see that might lead me to suspect a barrel replacement is the font on the first digit in the serial number,"3", on the barrel, appears to be slightly different in the top loop of the numeral than other spots on the gun, such as the left side of the receiver. Perhaps a good closeup of the front of the frame, in comparison to the bottom of the barrel would clear up the question.

Thanks, I will go take a picture of that area. it is a 9mm not a 7.65

Hope these help

Some of those lower case script letters baffle me. What is the suffix letter on Tonyt's pistol?

I’m not positive, but I thought it was the R

It is an r

Here is a pretty good chart of German letters used on Lugers: http://www.lugerforum.com/lugermarkings/suffix.html

Hi Tonyt915,
Interesting gun to be sure.... even though the barrel was likely replaced, it looks like a quality firearm for a very reasonable price!

be VERY careful with the grips......at that age, they will snap, crackle, and pop..........there are very nice journeyman replacements available, and as you said, put the set you have now into a safe location....many on this board are truly experts in the various areas of Lugers..... also the care and safe keeping of the wood.............welcome aboard....Tom

Hi Tomaustin. a question about your above comment regarding the grips- what kinds of stresses would cause the grips to snap / break? When the gun is shot the magazine advances by the width of 1 canted round, but there are grooves in the inside of the grip so that the magazine knob can move freely? The only stresses I can imagine is the pressure of the mag springs on the magazine base- I can imagine the mag base giving up, but the grips themselves? Obviously I am missing something.... please advise? Thanks.

mrerick- Is what you're referring to the mark shown in pic 10?
-Jason

I would disagree that that is an "antler" proof mark, it is the center part of a poorly struck Weimar era proof, the same mark as the second from the left on the right side of the chamber.

IF the one in picture #10 is the reference.

The 1920 is a property stamp, not a date; DWM did not reach the "r" suffix in 1920 or 1921.

JMHO. ;)

Don, I agree that it's not an antler proof mark.

However, DWM did produce military and police Lugers in the o - r suffix range in 1920. My reference is G&S red books, chapter 9, page 467.

Just wanted to say thanks for the help so far, was thinking it would be more cut and dry on dating and marks, didn’t realize there was so much variation.

Yep, ask anyone you meet and they will look at a luger and know that's what it is, but they are looking at the outline of the pistol. They don't know that there are @200 different different models and that is where the difference in value is...

For those who have a copy of Still's "WEIMAR and EARLY NAZI LUGERS", have a look at page 60. The Luger shown there is a DWM new manufacture pistol for the Army. The 1920 date or property stamp (whichever you prefer) is in exactly the same location over the chamber and appears to be further forward than date stamps on WW1 era guns. The suffix letter is an r which Still attributes to an out of sequence suffix.

Perhaps of more interest is the barrel proof mark in exactly the same location and clearly not antlers. The two Nazi era eagles suggest that the pistol went through proofing in the 1930's for some reason; perhaps a barrel replacement. The gun Still illustrates has a locking bolt and side plate that are not numbered in the military style. The OP's parts may have been stamped with the last two digits at a later date as the locking block is clearly numbered on the underside as a commercial Luger would have been.

Everyone may not agree but the OP's Luger is likely a new manufacture Army pistol made by DWM in 1920 and repaired or reworked during the Nazi era to continue service as a military pistol.

Anything is possible, but with respect to Still, I don't buy the out of sequence explanation;
but then, I've been wrong before. ;)

I only mentioned that because G&S state that in mid-1920, DWM did make Lugers in the suffix range of o - r as I indicated a few posts back.

WRT being wrong before, yeah... me too. ;)

RSHAW....I am referring to the removal, cleaning and refitting of the grips on the weapon....an additional set for the enjoyment of your weapon and prolonging the life of the older, and possibly original, grips is in the conversation with the collectors who purchase firing pins, extractors and other perishable parts in these vintage weapons......there aren't many more where that one came from.....Tom

I'm with Doubs. The proofs on the right side of the receiver are Weimar era as are the barrel proofs. I hear Don's argument, but too many signs point to one of the chamber dated pistols manufactured out of new and left over parts in the 1920-21 period. Those Weimar proofs are never seen on the so-called 1920s alphabet commercial pistols.
Lyn