SS-marking on luger
 

I bought an all matching Erfurt-luger from 1913. It is in 100% original condition with 85% blueing, and some bigger rust-pickles. Bought it from an old man who owned it for over 40 years. On the right chamber side are the four stamps from Erfurt AND on the left of them is a small eagle (WaA???) and on the left under the eagle the SS-stamp. I saw that stamp on some K 98 K, it is the same. The right side of the eagle is only low stamped in an you can see it hardly. Does anyone know anything about that stamp??? Is it possible, that it is original? Did the SS mark their lugers like their rifles? [img]confused.gif[/img]

Forgot to tell, that the gun has no other new stamps!

Someone sent me a photo of the SS runes on a 98K, couldn't get it to post here. Lots of possibilities here. Can you post a photo?

rk

Send it to me and I'll post it Sir [img]wink.gif[/img]

I've seen an E/SSWa1 marking several times. I believe it to be an SS armourers stamp - but that's purely an opinion. I first saw it on my Steyr Solothurn S1-100 SMG. I posted it on another forums and someone else posted a Luger stripping tool with the same stamp. Here's the stripping tool.
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/SSMarkedLugerTool.JPG

And here's the stamp from my SMG. It is about 5x5mm and is located on the butt immediately behind the trigger guard. I hope that this information helps and I'd be interested to know if anyone else has seen this stamp.
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/SSStamp.JPG

Both "SS" waffenamps look bogus to me. Tom H.

This is an example of someone's fanciful imagination and highly developed sense of greed combined with a keen analysis of collector market forces. Pure fakery.

Tom A.

Such a stamp is on my luger like the ones showed before. I'll send a pic. Thanks for all answers. Dieter

JohnF and I have communicated on this before. He lives in England and I live in Texas. I purchased the takedown tool a couple of years ago at a show from a collector with whom I am acquainted and lives in Alaska. I didn't know if it was real or not but I have handled lots of collectable items and I just liked it. I paid a nominal amount for it since the seller agreed that is was an undocumented stamp. The stamping is very well done. Another long time collector examined it and liked it, also.

I am not claiming that it is authentic but I would like to hear from those who say it is an outright fake as to their reasoning for such a conclusion. I am willing to learn.

If I remember correctly JohnF did not pay extra for the stamping. Am I correct? I paid the going price for a Waffenampt marked takedown tool for mine. Sure it was more than the price of an unmarked tool but a "real" SS tool, if such a thing exists, would be in the $200 range, I would guess. Gross profit didn't seem to be involved.

Regards, Leon

Usually, a buttstock cartouche indicating it's branch of use will be an "H" for "heer" (army), "K" for kriegsmarine (navy) and "L" for luftwaffe (air force). Believe it or not, the S.S. was on the bottom rung of the supply chain. The German Army High Command was very distrustful of the S.S. and supplied them only with Army castoff weapons. I have seen photos as late as 1940 of S.S. troops carrying Kar98bs ! A Kar98B is nothing more than a 29-inch-barreled WW1 Gewher98 with a tangent site instead of the Lange visier "roller coaster". The S.S. often resorted to carrying sidearms and rifles from conquered nations - the Polish VIS-35 9mm, Belgian Hi-Power and the Polish copy of the Kar98a Mauser . If the S.S. used this 1913 P.08, and it's very possible they did, I don't understand why they reproofed the chamber. Usually the Nazis accepted Hohenzollern , Weimar and even Hapsburg proofs unless the original caliber of the weapon was changed as in the case of some 1912 Steyr-Hahn pistols converted from 9mm Steyr to 9mm Luger.

The Heer used the HzA stamp on reworked pistols. Isn't it possible that the SS would use some type of inspection mark on reworked pistols? We know they did on the Death's Head Lugers and early Gew98 reworks but that was early. I suspect the SS, not being as organized as the Heer regarding weapons rework, could have used various types of stamps for rework inspection. We don't see them often or at all because they were reworking very few pistols and we can only inspect those that survived. I think it is possible that the SS was able to procure a certain number of new arms, not regular military arms and certainly not thru the Heer supply channels. I would think that those guns could have special inspection stamps also and there would be very few of them. I have no proof of the latter it's just a thought.

Regards, Leon

Ichabod, the Kar98b was more than a G98 with a tangent leaf sight instead of a roller coaster sight. Compared to the WW1 standard G98, the Kar98b had a bent bolt handle, both the barrel bands were different, and a slot was cut into the buttstock for a sling. They look very different. The Polish rifle that you mention being used by the Waffen-SS was the Wz 29 rifle. Later, after the Germans took over the Polish factory that manufactured it, it was designated the G29/40. But otherwise you are correct, the SS were generally at the bottom of the barrel for small arms in the Third Reich. Besides using captured weapons, I’ve seen photos of SS troopers with Czech VZ-24 rifles, reworked G98s, G24s, and even regular unmodified G98s from WW1.

SS markings on German WW2 rifles are controversial. Here are a few from Richard Law’s book, “Backbone of the Wehrmacht”. I’ve tried to find examples of the classic lighting bolts in their own, as opposed to the pretty well known death’s heads.

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/BNZ32Runes.JPG

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/1938SSRunes.JPG

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/ZZAMarkings.JPG

As far as Waffen-SS markings on wooden parts like the stock, the only ones I’ve ever seen, or observed in the publications I’ve read, are a death’s head or an occasional single rune either by the trigger guard, the hand guard, or on the bottom part of the stock. There is no known case of the SS marking the wooden part of the stock by the trigger guard with a Wa coded waffenamt. Sorry JohnF, the mark on your SMG is a fake.

Here are some examples of SS markings on wooden components.

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Em...'sHead.jpg

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/K9...sHeadStock.jpg

Hello Heydrich,

It is very interesting to me, a collector and researcher, that because one has never observed or read about something it automatically classifies the item in question as a fake.

I don't know if that SS marking is right or wrong. I am not all seeing, all knowing. But, I would venture to say that I have some pieces in my collection that are unquestionably correct that you have never seen and have not been in any books. I am sure many others do also.

Unless I had solid proof that something is faked, I myself would be very hesitant about labeling it as such. Questioning something is a reasonable response. Saying "My opinion is" or "I think" is a reasonable response. Labeling something as an outright fake is a little more serious and requires substantiation.

If you have some proof that the stamp is a fake, I would be very appreciative if you would share it with us. I would indeed like to know.

I am not trying to be nasty or insulting. I am only trying to make a point about possibly jumping to conclusions.

Regards, Leon

In a similar vein, I think we would be doing newer collectors and owners a service by expressing due reservation in attributing the death's head stamp to the SS.

--Dwight

Leon:

It should be patently obvious, no matter how I phrase my remarks, that what I type is my opinion on the matter. If you don’t like the syntax I chose, I don’t know what to tell you. Also, please go back up to my post and re-read the first sentence of my second paragraph. And as far as how I come to my conclusion, it is based on deductive reasoning. That is, going from the general, to the specific. In all my many years of collecting German rifles, and reading the most respected books on the subject, I have never come across such a marking in that location. As collectors, we should not make excuses for things that deviate so much from the norm. Indeed, it should be up to the person with the apparently oddball one-of-a-kind marked object to prove it’s not a fake, not the other way around.

Hello again Heydrich,

I am not trying to start a war here. I was only trying to convey my perspective on the subject. I wasn't trying to offend you. If I did, I apologize.

I reread the first sentence of the second paragraph on your previous reply. You say that SS markings on German WWII rifles are controversial. Is that a claim that the bnz 43's and 44's with single runes and in their own serial range are controversial? I thought those pieces were widely accepted by collectors as being authentic. I certainly do. Was your comment general or only referring to some rifles? What I am getting to is when someone writes something, I can only read it and take it at face value. I cannot get inside the head of someone I don't know and try to interpret what the words mean because of who wrote them. You stated "Sorry JohnF, the mark on your SMG is a fake". That seems clear enough to me. Sorry if I misinterpreted it.

On the subject of proof I, frankly, don't have to prove anything to anyone unless I am trying to sell to them. I show my items to collectors and they either like them or they don't. I buy things that appeal to me. I won't buy an outright fake if I can determine that. I feel the items should speak for themselves. But different people with different backgrounds and different experiences in collecting are going to see things differently. I have accepted that premise for a long time and it doesn't upset me if someone doesn't like something I have. I bought it for me, not them and, in a lot of cases, I feel my experience in collecting allows me to make better judgements than some of the collectors I show things to. That's just my opinion, of course, and I am certainly not referring to you in that statement. I just wanted to make that clear in case it wasn't patently obvious.

As far as the SS markings in question, I doubt there will ever be proof of authenticity. I question whether they are authentic also, but I only question. The point is that lack of proof doesn't make a questionable item a fake. How can you prove that a rifle hasn't been refinished? Claims of originality are based on experience and observation, not necessarily proof.

I'm very sorry if my comments offended you in any way. That was certainly not my intention. I don't know you and you don't know me but collectors who do know me would understand what I was attempting to explain. Maybe I could have worded it more delicately.

Kind Regards, Leon

I really don't know if the mark is genuine or not. I think that it is but that's just my opinion. I found it on my SMG myself as it wasn't even pointed out by the dealer. There was certainly no premium paid for it. I do find it curious that, if faked, such a stamp could turn up on diverse items so widely dispersed. I bought my SMG in the UK and the other two items were in the US. It's also not in a prominent place on the SMG and is not easy to see.
Maybe it's real maybe it isn't. Not everything relating to the 3rd Reich is impeccably documented. I've never seen a photo of Hitler in his underpant's but I am prepared to believe that he wore them :-)

Although this is one of those "tricky" threads, in the sense that feelings run high, I still think this kind of discussion is very good, and we can learn a lot.

Thickening up of your skin is sometimes required, but I think overall you guys are stating your points well and don't sound angry or (too [img]wink.gif[/img] ) upset to me.

Thanks you guys, this is good to hear and learn from others opinions.

Heydrich, man, I'm sorry - you're right on the K98b ! I "meant" ("meant" is a weasel word [img]wink.gif[/img] )barrel length makes it the same as a Gew98...yeah, that's the ticket....I'll be honest and admit that I've been looking for my Mauser book (can't find it) but weren't the bulk of 98b made by Suhl ?

Heydrich & all - re: Gew98s in S.S. hands. I remember reading on a Mauser rifle message board an O.S.S. account of S.S. guards in Belgium "armed with obsolete 1888 model rifles" . There was a long thread about whether the O.S.S. agent meant "1898" but the general consensus was that the agent (maybe Col. Rex Applegate ?) was very familiar German small arms and made mention of the year model "1888" precisely to illustrate the hodge-podge of weapons used by the "elite" S.S. Personally, I like the WW1 and older Mausers - there's a lot less fraud in the Imperial stuff. I've never heard of anyone faking a Fraktur proof. Also, my import-marked dou43 98k cost me $120 in 1999 but my 1891 Amberg Gew88/05 was just $50 in '98 and my near mint 1891 Loewe Gew88/05 was just $60 in 2001 ! - $110 for TWO non-import stamped rifles whose lineage can never be questioned - yessir, I like the oldies.

To all;

Whether the SS marking in question is real or not, I think we are experiencing the real phenomenon of the Internet. For the first time, collectors from all over the world can compare notes. So, a marking that was seen one time by a collector who doesn't know what to make of it suddenly shows up in other places also. I think this is a strong postive for the collecting community and will add greatly to our experience and knowledge. I commend the web hosts of this site for their help in this endeavor.

Regards, Leon

Good point leon.

The internet makes guns, parts and literature available that could never be seen before!

I mean, how often do most guys come across a AE, Artillery or Dutch gun?

And you look on gunbroker and wham, your blood gets hot.

On the other hand, bad guys can copy "rare" marks, scan them in and screw up the average colelctor.

Hi guys, here is a not so good pic of what we are talking. It's my Erfurt from 1913. The stamp seems for me to be real because the right wing of the eagle and the "1" of "Wa" is not to see because the gun has some deep rust-marks, also on the stamp! If it is a fake, how did he deep-rust the eagle??? http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/AdlerFoto.JPG

Here is a better pic of the SS-stamp. Your opinions please!http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/SS-Stempel1.JPG <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

Hi Dieter,

Your picture certainly lends credibility to the stamp. There will be those who ask "When was the stamp actually placed there?" and also say "That rust could have formed post-war". Both arguments are reasonable. I now have more confidence that the stamp is original but there are still doubts. Until the stamp shows up more and in more cases where it is most likely not a post-war enhancement, I don't think we can be absolutely sure and may never be. A big plus would be to have the vet who captured it declare that the gun was not altered post-war especially if no premium was placed on the stamp.

Regards, Leon

Maybe the stamp is post-war, but then it has to be done before 1960 because the last owner owned it for over 40 years, and he told me, that this stamp wasn't made in that time. Is it possible, that in the 50's someone owned such a stamp? Why should he stamp a gun, which had no value in that time? Many better ones were available. Maybe it is a fake, but for me not real believeable.

Hi Leon and others. The rust is one field from the old stamps to the Wa1. The runes are clear.

The "intensity" of the SS runes stamp is well illustrated by this enlarged photo that is also shown in a negative image (bottom photo)...

It is pretty obvious that the SS runes were not applied at the same time as the other stamps on the gun because of the difference in the intensity of the stamper's strike...

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/SSrunes-stamp.jpg

Hi Dieter,

I saw the stamping difference that you are talking about in the original photo. My take on it was that when it was stamped the die wasn't being held perpendicular but instead angled back and to the left which would account for the runes being struck deeply and the right wing of the eagle being struck so light that what appears to be a small amount of corrosion virutally eliminated the impression of the right wing. Stamps being struck at an angle is somewhat common. I have seen it numerous times.

I still certainly question the stamp but it makes for some interesting conversation and conjecture. I wish there were more examples or someone had something concrete concerning the stamp either one way or the other.

Regards, Leon

Sorry John,

Shame on me. I was in such a hurry that, when I saw the pictures, I assumed that Dieter had posted them.

BTW, I forwarded the picture of the Luger stamp to a long time collector/researcher that specialized in Third Reich (40 years). His opinion confirmed what I thought I was seeing about the die being struck at an angle. All personal opinion, of source.

He has mixed emotions about the authenticity of the stamp. Some of the info fits for him, some does not. He is primarily in doubt about the style of the eagle.

He said that the SS use of the Steyr Solothurn was historically accurate since they could get nothing like that thru military channels and they used that gun thoughout the war so having a SS stamp on that gun would not surprise him.

If I get more details or documentation from him, I will post them.

Regards, Leon

In my life I have handled several 10.000 Luger pistols and have never seen this stamp. Also on this is possible as the SS stole and robbed all guns they could lay their hands on in their desparate need for equipment for their troops. In contrary to the believe that the SS was well equipped, they got only what the Army, Airforce and Navy left over for them. If there had been any guns left in a place, the SS confiscated it.

Therefore - consider it that I might be real, just confiscated, marked and issued.

Karl

Hello Karl, welcome to the forum, send me a mail to: Dieter08@web.de

I am no expert on lugers, but if the SS procured the pistol after manufacture, it would stand to reason that the stamp would not have been added at the same time as the original proofs.

I would like to use the US procurment of shotguns as an example. In WW2 the US bought lots of shotguns right from commercial production(i.e. Remington M11, Ithaca M37, etc..) They also put martial markings on them when they purchased them. Obviously the stamps the Govt put on were not of the same variety, consistency, or depth as the stamps applied by the manufacturer. And the US property markings may have been added months or a year after the gun was actually produced.

Is that luger a fake??? Maybe. Maybe someone was honing their skills at deception and used a rough peice like that Erfurt to test the stamp on before applying it to a more desireable pistol???

I guess without any supporting evidence its all just conjecture.

interesting to discuss though.

John Sylvester

Hi John,

I don't think there is any doubt that the stamp would have been added after manufacture. The SS didn't exist in 1913.

My feeling is that, if the stamp is real, it is either a property stamp or a rework stamp added by a SS arsenal. That would have likely been in the late '30's but the early '40's would not be out of the question.

The stamp is suspect but I am keeping an open mind as I don't think anyone really knows for sure, one way or the other.

Regards, Leon

Gentlemen,

I would opine that if one has to go to the lengths that these discussions are reaching to rationalize legitimacy, then something is terribly wrong. Occam's Razor is a good principle in both philosophy and collecting:the shortest logical answer is most likely the correct answer.

If you have to resort to "coulda, maybe dida and possibly hadda" then I would suggest you are barking up the wrong tree.

The markings on the takedown tool and the pistol, are clearly bogus, IMHO. One would have to really strain credulity to believe otherwise.

Tom A.

To Tom A,

I do not perceive that anyone is trying to rationalize legitimacy with this thread. What I believe we are looking for is simply the truth which has not been found to this point, IMHO.

Please, sir, indulge those of us who do not see things as clearly as you.

Thank you, Leon

Leon,

I worded some of my post poorly. I am aware that this pistol was made well in advance of the SS. I was simply pointing out that some things may never be verifiable but real none the less. Like I said, when the Gov't...any Gov't agency has to procure material through unconventional means, it stands to reason that lots of variables will exisit. Markings and acceptance stamps included. I am not ready to jump too quickly to assumptions of authenticity as quick decisions can be short sighted.

John

There comes a point in these discussions where only opinion remains. I do not have a picture of an SS armourer stamping these items - equally no-one has evidence of this marking being a known fak stamp. The key things here are:
1) This is a simple debate, no-one is trying to sell anything at a premium based on these markings.
2) The fact that we can have this debate demonstrates the power of the internet to disseminate information. One posting of this stamp brought out two more examples. Let's see what other information is out there in lofts and basements.
Best wishes to all for Christmas and the New Year,
Cheers,
John

Hi,
More than likely the SS marks on the Luger and the takedown tool are bogus. There have been dies available for 50 years in Germany and the United States and are for sale currently. You can currently "order" any kind of a tool you desire from a certain "dealer", and this has been going on for years. This indicates that "craftsmen" have been "enhancing" variations for a long time. When a premium price can be obtained over a normal piece, you see the dies come out and pieces start showing up. An example of this is the Mauser Military Police variations where there are more fabricated pieces with a sear safety now than real examples. The same is true with the ss runes marked Lugers. Without absolute positive documentation of some kind, you more than likely have an enhanced variation. Another example is the reported 1945 Krieghoff examples where it was positively observed that a guy in the mid-east in the 50's or early 60's was building these in his shop. The dies were observed, the frames, and other parts. This was in the 50's, so don't fool yourself that this hasn't been going on for a long, long time! Stoegers are another example where there are more fabricated examples than real examples. It is interesting that these examples are just now showing up and that the major collectors that have search all over the world, have contacts all over the world, have not been able to find examples until just recently, and they have had access to major collections for the last 50 years. Just something to think about.