Japanese Luger Story in AutoMag...
 

Interesting Japanese luger story was written about in this month's NAPCA AutoMag newsletter. AutoMag is copyrighted; so I will try to paraphrase the article written by a Mr. Frank Allan (for folks here that may not subscribe...) :

Mr. Allan apparently has written a previous article about Japanese lugers with their "chrysanthemum" chamber markings. I gather his article was to forewarn folks of the fakery of such Japanese lugers.

Mr. Allan, in the current AutoMag article, reports receiving a letter from a writer who many years earlier met Harry E. Jones at a California gun show. This fellow asked Jones if he did, indeed, fake, the photo of the Japanese luger in the Jones book, Luger Variations, on pages 208-209.

This fellow reports that Jones said "yes" he did and that it took sometime for him to get the superimposed negatives right for the photo in the book. The flower photo coming from a a rifle with the MUM flower.

This fellow then went on to ask Jones how long after the Jones book coming out, did fake Japanese lugers start showing up. Jones is reported as replying "about six months".

So, here are my questions :

1. Is this story true ? Is it well known that Jones did "doctor up" this photo to create a Japanese luger ?

2. The photo credits in the Jones book on pages 208-209 is given to a collector named Mr. Russ Storer. Was there, then, not a real Mr. Storer ? Or was Mr. Storer surprised to see his "enhanced" luger show up as a Japanese luger in the book ? Or did both Mr. Jones and Mr. Storer just play a trick on the luger collecting community, as a practical joke ?

3. Finally, are there such things as authentic Japanse lugers that do have the MUM chamber crest ?

Sam Costanzo in his book, "World Of Lugers - Proofmarks" on page 197 written in 1977 states "Watch for fakes, only 2 originals have been authenticated...". Are these 2 lugers still thought to be real Japanese lugers, i.e. captured Dutch lugers that had a chamber marking added by the Japanese ?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Great questions Pete... I can't wait to hear the replies...

Pete... would it be possible for you to post a cropped photo of the alleged Japanese chamber marking from the Harry Jones book?

Maybe his son Mike Jones can comment on the Automag story? How about it Mike?

On the Japanese website of gunboards, this has been brought up also, for other guns, not Lugerâ??s, such as Garands, captured K98's etc. And the Japanese experts say no way was this an official thing done to captured weapons. Not saying it isn't possible, but the Mum was a sacred thing of the emperor and so it was selectively placed on weapons. Doesn't mean someone didn't have it done, but the majority of the time, it was after the war to enhance the piece. There were several thousand Lugerâ??s and other arms that were captured in the Dutch Indies and this is where it is believed they would have been marked, and a few rumors of Lugers bought as personal weapons.

All the articles I have read have stated this is probably all bogus, but it is unknown and I look forward to anything that comes out of this.

Ed

Articles regarding Japanese Lugers with the Mum on the chamber periodically pop up in the NAPCA AutoMag newsletter. The conclusion has always been that these guns are fake. Personally, I would never pay big bucks for one. I would apply a gun dealers credibility discount. But as an interesting shooter at a reduced price, I have a resounding maybe. But I would not go out of my way to buy one.
There are just too many other interesting Lugers that I would like to have.
Big Norm

When I was quite young in the early sixties, my Uncle talked about Japanese Lugers. My Uncle was of just the right age, that after entering
the Army and going through training he arrived in Europe just as the war in Europe ended. After a few weeks there, he was ordered to the Pacific.
He had made it to the Phillipines, while there, another GI offered him a pair of Lugers for some cigarettes. He described them as having flowers
over the chambers. He wished he had taken them, but cigarettes were valuable. I've thought about the story many times over the year, and wondered. Now with controversy over them, it makes me wonder even more about the Japanese Luger...
:rolleyes:

Johnny, that is one of those, I wish... And I would love to have a Luger with a mum on it :)

So somewhere in America is this GI saying, and I had two of these Lugers with flowers on them things and I traded both for some packs of cigs to some navy (or air corps) guy!

John S.,

Will do...I am away from my library and scanner until Sunday night, but will post a scan of the Jones' photo, then...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

As luck would have it, I received my current copy of AutoMag just after Pete's original post. I have to agree with Pete that it is disgusting that a trusted author of a book would fake a picture of a Japanese Luger just to add one more page in a book. But I would still add a big "Gun Dealer Credibility Discount" to anyone trying to sell one of these things as original.
Big Norm

I have a copy of that book! Not only is the mum shown, but also it appears that there are three Japanese characters on the top of the barrel just ahead of the marking, perhaps they mean "Dont believe what you see" lol :D

As promised; here is the photo of the "Japanese" luger in the H. Jones book, on pages 208-209 :

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/japaneseluger.jpg

Per Mike Jones' suggestion, see page 209 text in Harry's book; there were no contract lugers for Japan.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Since the 1940 seems to occupy the space that is normally occupied by the date stamp on the chamber, I would have to speculate that this gun had the "mum" added at some date later than it's manufacturing date. I can't see where the factory would stamp something that large in combination with the date that close to the front of the receiver...it would seem from observing many chamber date stamps that they would have centered the stamps between the front of the receiver and the extractor notch...

just my http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/2cents.jpg

Pete,

First of all you paraphrase Auto Mag because of copyright, What about the photo you posted?

It's funny how defamation of character can occur after someone has died.For Frank Allen to conclude from a letter from a writer of ANOTHER ALLEGED CONVERSATION With Harry that he superimposed a negative to create the Japanese Luger is TOTAL BULLS**T.

Then you imply Harry created Russ Storer to pass off a photo in a book. Russ was real,Had a large collection of guns and a family, wife Jeannette, daughter Anne and son Charley of Bellaire Texas. Maybe you can track them down and verify this.

As to this gun it is still around, the current owner ordered a copy of the book a couple of years ago.

Harry thought this was a interesting variation and included it in the book. If he thought any different he would not have. As he chose not to include a photo of a Spandau Luger.

Regards,
Mike Jones

Dear friends,

Please excuse my stupidity but I do not know how to upload pics

I have pics of a Japanese Luger.

Rgds,

Alain

Alain,
If you email the pics to me, I can post them for you.
Ron

Here are views of Alain's Japanese Luger.

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/AlainJapanese.jpg

Dear Ron,

Thanks a lot for posting these pics that I had a hard time uploading.

Unfortunately this Japanese Luger is not mine.
It was offered for sale at auction (Herman Historica) a couple of years back.

Will send the original text describing the article.

Rgds,

Alain

Hello Mike,

1. First off; I did not intend to defame your father's good name. He, Datig, and Kenyon are the pioneers in cataloguing and educating us luger "nuts". If you took offense, I sincerely apologize.

2. As to the photo from your Dad's 1975 version of his book; if a current copyright is still in place (after 28 years), please advise and I will be happy to delete the photo from the book in my 2nd. posting.

3. I assumed since Mr. Frank Allan's article was printed in the current AutoMag newsletter, there was some credibility to the "story". As I understand the NAPCA folks "screen" out mail, articles, and e-mails and decide what appears in the newsletter. I assumed, maybe erroneously, the AutoMag staff had determine the article was "worthy of printing"...

4. The reason I posted my paraphrased version was to let Luger Forum members, that do not subscribe to AutoMag, know about the article and this little "controversy". As a moderator on the Luger Forum, one role we have is to bring such info. to folks attention to hopefully stimulate more discussions and opinions.

5. Thanks for letting us know that Mr. Storer is indeed a real person. Assuming the Frank Allan article had/has some merit; I was merely speculating as to Mr. Storer's pistol and his roll in the story...

6. I will venture a bet that this "story" will continue to play out in AutoMag over the next few months. Might I assume you will write a rebuttal letter to Mr. Allan's article for submission to the AutoMag folks ? One might certainly ask Mr. Allan to identify the "writer" of the letter that is at the heart of this story about the photo in your father's book.

7. I would assume Mr. Storer might even be contacted (if he is not deceased) to shed some light on the Japanese luger...if this story is truely without merit, I would think it an easy matter to clear up and possibly secure a retraction in AutoMag...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

I made an attempt to post these comments a few days ago, unfortunately my comments failed to appear. I think they were lost in the "spell check". This time, I won't spell check this one. In my collection you will find a 1940 "flower" pistol, anyone is welcome to check it out any time your in my area. Certainly, it is not my intent to vote in favor of these pistols, but I do have a few comments. My pistol has a very small Japanese mark on the ball of the lower rear grip strap. This was pointed out to me by Mr. Don Forsythe of Lebonan, OR many years ago. This mark is not mentioned on other "flower" 1940 dates.????

Now for the Harry Jones issue. I knew Harry Jones many years ago. I was not a close friend, but knew him well enough to know that he was not a faker of Luger pistols. During my many years of collecting the German Luger, I have had many discussions with many knowledgeable collectors relating to the know fakers. Harry Jones was never mentioned in any of these discussions. I believe a couple of you people have "jumped to conclusions" and convicted a well know Luger collector of fraud without a nickels worth of pure evidence or justification!!! Don't be in such a hurry to judge without some real facts!! Think, AM is a discussion publication, not a documentation of printed facts.

If Harry Jones was ever asked such an immature question such as (DID YOU FAKE THIS PISTOL?), I believe he would have answered the question with a tail that would have impressed Fred Datig, Jan Still, Sam Costanzo or Charles kenyon. He was just sort of person. See the last issue of AM for a typical Harry Jones answer. I know of a few real fakers who would have presented a real "vet story", like directly from the Vet's wife, etc..If you believe that gun show story, maybe we can get a group together and buy a bridge to Hawaii..

Many years ago, I came upon a copy of a letter written by a US Diplomat stationed in Germany just after WW-11. The content of this letter indicated he had been presented a Luger of this type from a ranking German Diplomat. At that time it was his intention to bring this pistol back to the US. Was this letter advance advertizing for the fake "Mum" 1940 dates or the truth???
This letter remains in my files, let me see if I can find it.

Never have I been convinced my 1940 Japanese marked pistol was correct and I'm certainly not going to pass it off on some to some new Luger collector. However, I believe this approach to proving a pistol is a fake or real really is not a demonstration of sincere Luger collectors. Stinks?? I will always doubt (if this pistol is proved to be a fake) the "mum' 1940-42 was born in Torrance, CA.

Do hope my spelling was acceptable this time, don't want to see this one "fly away".
Good Luck and have fun collecting. Let's get on to a more interesting discussion.

Don Hallock
Novice Luger Collector

Good Morning all,

I would like say a few words in Pete's defense and to add that I don't think it was Pete's intention to disparage the memory or reputation of Harry Jones...

Although Pete was appointed one of the Lugerforum moderators because of his enthusiasm for the Swiss Model and high level of participation when the Lugerforum began this new incarnation this year, he is a relative newcomer to Lugers and collecting them and would have had no prior knowledge of Harry Jones reputation.

I have never heard a derogatory word about Mr. Jones before this thread started... and Pete was only bringing the forum's attention to the AM article where the innuendo regarding Mr. Jones began...

Don H... in your own words, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Think, AM is a discussion publication, not a documentation of printed facts.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The lugerforum is exactly that, a medium for discussion, and not so much a documentation of historical fact... New folks have to learn somewhere, and this is a great place to learn because knowledgable folks who frequent here share their wisdom that was learned the hard way... How else would a newcomer learn about Harry Jones and his reputation except by being witness to printed conversations here in this forum, or by hearsay learned at a gunshow.

We must all learn to sift the wheat from the chaff... Hopefully learning from others keeps us from learning the hard way ourselves...

I am grateful for the responses from both Don Hallock and Mike Jones, who took the time to set all of us (especially the newcomers) straight on Harry Jones and this facet of Luger history...

I still find the discussion of the alleged Japanese Luger a legitimate topic for discussion.

We now have three examples known to the forum. The gun in Harry's book. The gun pictured in Alain's photograph, and the gun Don just said is in his collection. If more of the collectors who frequent this forum would take the time to chime in on this discussion with what they know or believe they know, and at the same time publish photos of the "mum" lugers here for comparison... perphaps we could all learn much more about this variation.

My speculation (and noted as such) that the Mum appears to have been added to the gun later than the time of manufacture because of the placement of the stamp compared to other variations is not completely without merit... and I would welcome other facts or speculation on this topic.

Perhaps if we can jointly research this area, we can come up with some facts from collectors who are Harry Jones peers, but who have not yet passed on, who can elighten the Luger enthusiasts about the origin of this really neat variation of Luger.

On another topic... the spell checker! I don't think that the implementation of spell check that is part of the forum software can deal with long posts (such as this one) It does work fine for posts that are only a couple of lines... It ain't perfect, but it is all we have :)

Thanks to all for contributing.

Hello Don,

I do not think the AM article by Frank Allan and Mr. Who (?) indicated Harry actually was forging Japanese lugers. I think the allegation was that Harry may have "doctored up" a photo to create a new "variation".

If, and I say a big "if", the story is true; maybe Harry's intentions were honorable and he was just testing the luger community and the cottage industry of guys that tinker/doctor up lugers. Maybe Harry's intent was to "create" the impression of an authentic Japanese luger to confirm his suspicions that such lugers would start to appear in the market place where none had appeared before...

I regret even mentioning this AM article on the Luger Forum, at all. You should see the "hate mail" I am getting...

I will just wait for this thing to continue in AutoMag over the next few issues...

Good to hear from you and I appreciate your thoughtful posting on the Luger Forum...

Best regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

I fully believe that the flower was added after the Luger left the factory. The best explanation I've seen, is that the Japanese captured them and the flower was added by them. That still makes them an interesting historical addition to the Luger. Anyone attempted to figure out what the characters on the barrel mean???

There is absolutely no record of any "contract" Lugers being produced for Japan, so the addition of the marking some time after it was produced can be considered a dead certainty. John Sabato's and others observations that the markings are post factory are, in my opinion, very valid. Ed Tinker's reference to the chrysanthemum being a very restricted marking is an opinion that is held by advanced Japanese militaria collectors, some even going so far as to indicate that it would be a punishable offense if performed in Japan. But, that doesn't mean that it couldn't have had official "imperial" authorization and records have not survived. It is just a big unknown. As to my personal opinion, I believe I will just remain mum on the issue. :p

If we were all to review Fred Datigs' book and search the pages on early Mauser contracts, we might find that all of the Mauser contract information somehow died afterÃ?Â*1939. If anybody has any records of post 1939 Luger contracts that are not obvious, Please help There is nobody more interested in this information than me. I have a copy of a US Military document published in 1946 by the U.S. Army. According to this document, truck loads of Mauser records left Oberndorf for France in early 1946. Much of our WW-11 history would lead us to believe the "Russians" ravaged and burned the factory at Oberndorf? I wish we had the answers. Maybe our friends in France can find these warehouse where all these old records are stored.

Hi,

Some comments:
1. Disappearance of records is not strange. A contact in Holland reported that luger-related production info for magazines were destroyed as late as the early nineties. For everybody except collectors and historians, records are wasting valuable office and storage space and therefore they are destroyed regularly.

2. If there are japanese captured lugers, they certainly didn't capture them from the German army :) I will find a Dutch KNIL luger an acceptable candidate for Japanese capture (and possible added engravings), because the Dutch were overrun in what is now Indonesia and Thailand in 1942.

3. The japanese had quite extensive contacts with the Germans but chose to produce their own version (the Nambu). 'presentation' or 'gift' or 'souvenir' lugers popping up with Japanese markings sound acceptable.

Dear Pete, I admire your courage by bringing up issues that are controversial to help educate us on this Forum. How else would we learn? Witness your posts previously about the 45 luger. Damn the "hate mail", keep up the good work!!!

I agree with Gerben that presentation pieces are always possible, or even self bought pistols, as that occured.

But, I would think that those that were captured (possibly 4,000 pieces, including some FN's and other pistols, and rifles), that these would be the most likely canidates. It would be interesting to see if the serial numbers are within acceptable ones bought by the Dutch? You may notice that neither of the guns pictured above are 1906 models, and the majority were of the grip safety models.

Ed

Here are some comments on "Fair Use" for educational purposes for copyrights:

Sec. 107. - Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include -

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html

So using portions of text or pictures is acceptable, but we must remember to give credit to whomever the writer(s) is, it can not be large copied portions, but small excerpts is legally acceptable.

Ed

I really don't know much about this but that hasn't stopped me yet. What I see as interesting is that the two examples shown are both in the same photo "positioning", both are 1940 42s, black & white photo, and that the mum is on the same place as was placed on a Imperial rifle. Never have seen one ground off, and I don't think I have ever seen one on a Nambu. The chamber area would not be an easy place to place the mum. If not done at an arms factory, wouldn't it be easier to mark on a flat surface? Why would they be marked and not Nambus (if they weren't) which were made for ossifers in an era in which the weapon and the soldier were servants of the Sun God? John S, can you do some of your super secret computer stuff and look at the stampings for halos?

rk

Placing the mum above the chamber was a Japanese requirement
for military weapons. When the war ended the officials ordered
the mum removed due to the significance of the mum. Some were
removed some were not. I've seen rifles where it looked as if
someone tried to scratch it off, and some looked as if it was
filed away...

Leaving the realms of speculation, the Japanese didn’t even place their sacred chrysanthemum on guns they made in occupied factories they controlled, or stamp the Mum on the tens of thousands of VZ-24 and Standard Modell rifles they captured from the Chinese. During the period from 1933 to 1945, the Japanese ran the Mukden arsenal in Manchuria, were they manufactured a very strange rifle that was used by their own forces extensively. There is no known example of this type of rifle that has the Mum on it. The two examples I see in Ball’s book have a strange crest with two circles and a bull’s-eye in it instead of the Mum.

I don’t know the author, nor have I seen the book in question. But one thing I can say about human nature is that it’s almost impossible to keep a good secret if it’s true. Sort of like Ulysses mocking and taunting the blinded Cyclops Polyphemus that he had escaped him, as he rowed back to his ship with his Greek companions.

How come Robert Weiss has no comments on this subject.

I have gone thru a past issues of AutoMag and have found another article by Mr. Francis C.Allan "In Search of the Illusive Japanese Luger", pages 80 thru 84, July 2002. He supplies four different illustrations of counterfeit Japanese Lugers. His article is well documented and written. He thanks such gun luminaries as Sam Costanzo, Keith Cumberland, Joseph P. Koss, Robert Hiller, Linn Lockwood, Jerry L. Price and Ralph E Shattuck for providing information for his article. He states that Sam Costanzo did a lot of traveling in search of these Lugers. Even to the extent of traveling to Europe just to examine two guns. He proved that both guns were counterfeit. In summation, Mr. Allan states that "no 'Japanese Model' of the Luger ever existed...no exception to this fact.".

The article gave Mr. Allens address and e-mail. But after hearing that a man of Pete Ebbinks quality got some hate mail, I am reluctant to post it. While Mr. Mike Jones has a legitimate complaint, I feel that, otherwise, this entire discussion is perfectly legitimate and a good learning experience for all Lugerheads. Thats what this forum is all about. Thanks Pete for the discussion.
Big Norm

Found the letter I was looking for concerning the Japanese Luger on pages 208 & 209 of Luger Variations. As of August 19, 2002 it is in Nashville Tenn. I will contact the gentleman that owns it and see if I can get color photos and post them here.

I sincerly hope Frank Allen and his mystery guest (which I feel is one of two people) will not accuse me of being 2nd generation photo doctor.

Regards,
Mike

Mike, although I would get hot if someone wrote about my Dad, brother, etc., this is an interesting thread, and I am curious as to the outcome or at least further information coming out.
My gut feeling is that the Mum's on Japanese Lugers are not real, I also don't have any doubt that owners of these obtained them that way and Harry Jones was simply documenting what he was given and saw. Although possible, I find it improbable that Mr. Jones would fake photos for his book.
It would be interesting to see What Mr. Allan has to say about this, as he used to be a member of this forum? If it is written up in the NAPCA AutoMag newsletter, then this would be the same type of public forum?

Ed

While glancing through Jan Stills "Third Reich Lugers" book, I found Jans diplomatic discussion of the Japanese Luger. See page 74.
Big Norm

__________________
You can call mother 'mum' but don't ever call father 'dud' :D

not to change the subject,but how do you become a member of this NAPCA and get this newsletter.
oh yea is it worthwhile to join is there good info there?

Put NAPCA in a search engine such as www.google.com and it will come up like this:

http://www.napca.net/

:)

Hello Ejc,

I joined NAPCA last year for the 1st. time and have looked forward to receiving my AutoMag newsletter each month. As I recall, you need an existing member to "host" or "sponsor" your membership application...

There is always stuff about lugers in AutoMag but also more info. on other automatic pistols. Through AutoMag, I have developed an appreciation for Walther Olympia pistols and even Bergmann Bayard pistols...both now on my "shopping list"...

There are a lot of older, established collectors that participate in AutoMag and it is obvious that many NAPCA members may not be Internet connected.

The folks that run NAPCA and issue AutoMag have been struggling with how to bring AutoMag onto the Web and not loose their core of long time members that might not have PC's. The pros & cons of this issue/discussion have been going on in "dialogues" in AutoMag for awhile...

I am not sure how Mr. Tom Knox, who runs NAPCA, will eventually resolve this and where AutoMag will go in the future.

In the meantime, web-based discussion boards such as the Luger Forum, Jan Still's new pistol board, and others are seemingly forging ahead with the new technology...but I hope some collectors are not left out...

Web-based discussion boards are great for that "instant" response, but I also find myself enjoying reading discussions in AutoMag that might take a few months to unfold. Reminds me of a few years back when you actually wrote letters (i.e. paper & pen) to your friends and then waited at the mail box for their replies a few weeks later.

I suspect the Japanese luger issue that Mr. Frank Allan started on AutoMag will take a few more months to develop, so more opinions can be "heard"...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Thanks
I sent them a email on how to get more info.If they will let me I will join.
Ed

I have no explanation to forward on the subject of mums on Lugers, nor do I even have a theory. However, it seems to me that anyone skilled and talented enough to place these markings on a Luger had a world of possibilities if he desired to create a fake collector piece. Why pick the mum and not the Italian R.E. (Reggio Ejercito)? Or how about the French Fleur d'Lis, And why did he mark more than one Luger?