Ku BYF 41 Dated Luger
 

Gentlemen:

I am new to this board and really appreciate the wealth of information available to all Luger enthusiasts. I have been a "closet" collector of Lugers for some time, but know very little about them. One that I have, which I acquired several years ago is a BYF 41 dated Ku prefix Luger. I will try to describe it for your comments as best I can. I've been experimenting with my digital camera, but am unable to get enough detail and quality to post them.

The left side of the barrel and right side of the receiver bear the Luftwaffe proof mark, that appears to be a DE with an A in the center. No other proof or identification marks are present. It bears the SN-- Ku 4216 and all external and internal parts match. The only other unique feature of the numbers is the fact that the side plate bears the last two digits (16) and underneath is a smaller s/42.

It appears to be all original with the exception of the magazine, which is an unnumbered FXO E37 with a blue body and aluminum center pinned bottom.

I have read Jan Still's book "Third Reich Lugers" and mine fits nicely with the examples he shows on pages 97-104. I have no idea of it's present value and will try to download some pictures for those of you that are much more knowledgable than I in the near future.

If the moderator of the forum reads this message, I would like to change my user name as I mispelled it when it was submitted. Instead of RAHamiliton, it should be RAHamilton, with no second "i" in the name. Please let me know what I need to do to correct my inadvertant error?

Finally, thanks to all of you and I look forward to gaining greater knowledge in my pursuit of this fabulous weapon!

Best Regards,
Bob Hamilton

Bob, you can't change your login name, but you can always change your "Publically Displayed" name. Go to the top right of the forum, click on profile, then modify profile and then change it to what you'd like.

WELCOME to the forum!! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Ed

Thanks Ed, I've updated my "publically displayed" name, as well as, my password.

Best Regards,
Bob

Hi Bob, There are is much KU discussion on this board. And in the search section. Feel free to peruse it and ask questions. As my library is limited , many others know thier stuff. My wife bought me the scanners and camera and I can't figure out how to work the stuff. Just jump in...

Thats where having children come in handy they know how to work cameras and computers, and even put lugers back together for their old man.

Henry, I got lucky, the army forced this mid-range old guy to learn that stuff, but you are right, our kids grew up with this stuff, we had to learn it!

I can help post pictures for people if need be, gives me the first look at your cool item and can help out a brother or sister collector~~~ {{although once you learn how, unless you have the toma gene, it is easy!!}}

Ed

I guess what most of these guys have been trying to say, but the right words have eluded them is WELCOME to the Lugerforum Bob Hamilton!

John was right. Welcome Bob, We are all glad to have you. Ask any questions you have. Welcome aboard!

Thanks for the welcome guys! I've been experimenting with my digital camera and think I've figured out how to get fairly good pictures that will give all of you enough detail to be able to give me some feedback. I will be out of town this week, but will try again next weekend with some pictures. Thanks again, and I look forward to your comments.

Best Regards,
Bob

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku2.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku2.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku3.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku3.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku4.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku4.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku5.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku5.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku6.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku6.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku7.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku7.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku8.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku8.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

pictures posted for Bob;

Ed

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku9.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku9.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku10.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku10.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Hi Bob,

Let me add my welcome as well..!

OK, for your K�¼ - I believe that stamp you refer to is called the LA proof. If you look closely, I think what you will see is a drop-winged Eagle, and the "left wing" (on your "left" as you look at it) will have 3 lines, while the right will have 2. The 3rd, inside line of the left wing will probably shape an "L", with the "L" extending under the "A"? If so - yes, that is correct....

As well - the MAG you have appears to be a proper MAG, with the FXO - E37, and you should see the "P.08" on the right of that same side? These are Haenel MAGS - and the aluminium bases are correct either proofed with the LA/serial number/suffix, or unmarked, as yours appears to be...

BTW - great pics!!! If you get a moment, if you can post a picture of the LA, MAG, MAG base, etc - and we can go from there..?

Best to you!

John

John:

Thanks for your observations and information regarding the LA proof and the Haenel Magazine. I looked closely at the proof marks and the one on the receiver is exactly as you describe; a droop winged eagle with three lines on the left and two on the right. The inner line of the three does extend under the "A" as you described. The one on the barrel is a little less pronounced, but does appear to be identical, even though the stamp is not as deep and therefore not as well defined.

The Magazine is exactly as you describe also. It has the FXO and E37 (left side of mag button) on the body and PO8 on the same side, but right of the button. The base is totally without any markings whatsoever.

John, if one assumes that everything is correct and the Ku is original with all matching numbers, do you have any idea of a current value range? I'm curious as I purchased this Luger many years ago at what I thought was a pretty good price.

Finally, I will take some additonal pictures of the LA proof and Magazine in the next few days. I have to wait until the sun is shining, as I seem to get much better results under natural lighting conditions.

Ed has been gracious enough to assist me with the posting of the pictures and I wanted to thank him here on the forum for his time and assistance.

Thanks again John for your insights. This information helps me in my slow but steady learning process.

Best Regards,
Bob Hamilton

Hi Bob,

It would be thrilled to see some more photos - and I know I'm not alone..!!!

On the pricing - I hate to give estimates without seeing something in person, and given that it still needs to be verified as everything matches.

I also hope others post back what they see as prices, too - as I sort of watch K�¼'s from the sidelines, rather then being my primary area (OK - is that enough disclaimers!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> )

I saw a 41 go at a local gun store for $2050 not too long ago - I think it was originally tagged at $2395, but sat for a bit. I also noticed one on a dealers website about 4 months ago - and they were in the same range. As I recall, the 41/BYF had the highest production estimate of the K�¼ (I'll try to find the reference, but - I believe it is Mr. Still Third Reich Lugers) with just under an estimated 3,000 total.

Again though - this is only a price estimate, based on only a few sources as I recall....

Hope this helps!!

Hi Bob..!

I found the reference to the K�¼ production. Please refer to Mr. Still - Third Reich Lugers - Page 97 where estimated production is 2700 units.

Best to you!

John

Does the color of the extractor seem odd to anyone...? Cannot tell it if was "plum" or it it had gotten "strawed" at some point in time...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Hi Pete,

I noticed that too - but - I think it's a bright plum, and in the direct sunlight, I think it "enhances" that color with the metal reflecting through the "blue"?

Bob - is this correct???

Best to you Pete (and Bob!)

Hello All:

The extractor is a definitely more of a plum, but somewhat rust colored variation. I'm not sure exactly sure how to describe it to you, but the photograph does make it appear a little more golden color than it really is.

I read in Jan Still's book,"Third Reich Lugers", that the Ku's were made by Mauser, probably for the Luftwaffe, from left over or missized parts. This may be one possible explanation for the strawed/plum colored extractor, but that is anyone's guess. It does bear the correct last 2 digits of the serial number. I guess it just adds to the character of this particular Ku.

I really appreciate the comments from everyone and I will try to add some additional photographs showing the LA proof and magazine.

John, thanks so much for the value estimates and I realize it is only a guesstimate or ballpark figure without having the opportunity to see the piece firsthand. It does, however, give me some idea as to what its potential value range may be.

I can't state enough how much I enjoy reading everyone's comments regarding the many items contained on this forum. You're not only enhancing my knowledge base, but given me a renewed interest in Luger collecting.

Best Regards,
Bob Hamilton

Hi,

The problem with Ku marked lugers is that there is still no verified explanation for their existance. Although many theories have been discussed and some of them are plausible there is still no written evidence on them, other than Krieghoff denying involvement in them.

If Mauser had assembled them according to their own specifications, they would not have added an extra 'Ku' mark, since it doesn't serve any real purpose (and Mauser had other 'rework' marks in use).

Most likely is that a (small) subcontractor reworked production or army rejects and added it's own Ku mark so that problems with the gun during use would point to them, rather than to the original manufacturer. A bit along the same lines as the 'Kl' reworks that show up once and again.

Who or what Ku was, is still a mystery.

G. van
Vlimmeren

What does the word "Kummerle" ( u with unlaut) mean to you? I take it to mean "leftovers" or extra parts. I had provided this observation a year or so ago but it was not generally accepted.
My opinion was based on the fact that the u w/umlaut is a pronunication instead of a block series number.
rk

Hi RK,

Well, that would roughly translate as 'poor' or 'troublesome'. Not a mark I would like on my Luger <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

The problem with U/umlaut is indeed that it's difficult to match a German phrase with it, that also makes sense in common German gunsmithing.

That is why I prefer the theory that a small group or company designated as 'Ku' reworked some rejects or leftovers as it fits in line with the 'Kl' lugers that appear to point to a small reworking firm as well.

(I won't even start to discuss the 'kustenfliegerstaffeln' :) )

I am looking into another interesting link. One of the few arms companies that fits the 'KU' description is a royal hungarian plant (or Konichlich Ungarnische Eisen- Stahl- und) Maschinenfabrik).

The Hungarians were quite active in 1941-1942 when they allied with the Germans and as a result their airforce was placed under German Luftwaffe command in 1942.

Now for the serious speculation part:
So there suddenly appears a 'new' airforce part that needs to be armed while Krieghoff can hardly supply the German Airforce alone. Imagine that P08 leftovers and rejects from Mauser are shipped to Hungaria where they are overhauled by the Konichlich Ungarian E.S.M. factory, who already were producing ammo on DWM-supplied machinery.

Since these weapons were all Mauser-numbered and coded, some code had to be added to link the overhauled guns to the Hungarian plant, after which they were accepted by the Hungarian airforce (under German control, so with Luftwaffe acceptance stamps).

This may also explain the unknown Mauser deliveries in 1942 :)

Nice theory, eh?

Hello Gerben,

First - excellent post.... My thanks.....

I've been thinking about your post throughout the day - and first, I will say I reject K�¼stenfliegerstaffeln (Coastal Units), K�¼stenfliegergruppen and Krieghoff (Kufstein Factory association) with the same degree of skepticism.

However - I am aware of the Hungarian Airforce, but thought they were under the same Versailles sanctions as Germany from the onset (and began rearming in secret in 1937). However, I thought their aircraft were depleted in 1941 (Operation Barbarossa) and previous to that wasn't terribly effective or active - given the small number of aircraft (which wasn't of a significant size until 1941)?

But to your point - in mid/late 1942 (I'll have to check my notes), Hungary restocked with primarily Luftwaffe equipment. As well, as you probably know (but I'm posting for those who do not) - I believe Germany set up aircraft production facilities in Hungary in late 1942 (as the final assembly point). I thought it was only the factory that was under German control, rather then the Hungarian Air Force? However - since the factories are a matter of record, your comments/theory may have quite a bit of validity - certainly enough to pursue - and frankly - is very plausible!

As well - I thought - and could be wrong - the Hungarian Air Force was not placed under German control until 1944, when they retreated back into Germany? If that's correct, then could the LA stamp been applied, or the LA stamp utilizied, as the Hungarien Air Force Acceptance (without association to the German Luftwaffe)? On the other hand, if they were under German control - it's as valid a stamp referenced as Luftwaffe.

So - some other questions are:

Did Konichlich Ungarian E.S.M. have any stamps which may be viewed "unique" on their other components produced?

Why would Konichlich Ungarian be condensed to "K�¼" rather then KU? I'm not certain which would be proper?

Excellent post.... I rarely tuck a post into the back of my mind at the beginning of the day - to consider it throughout. Yours is such a post...

My thanks!!

Just to take the edge off this facinating mystery of the Ku marking, I would like to remark that this example has one heck of a nice set of grips on it! Look at the incredible fit of those grips... Sure doesn't look like factory "seconds" to ME :)

Has anyone considered that the Ku might not be German at all?

http://www.heer.vbs.admin.ch/interne...ub/kuchef.html

Hey John..!!

Finding references to K�¼ in many areas is pretty easy :) THE TOUGH part is fitting Luger Production into them and the LA stamp (commonly considered associated with the Air Forces of a country - Germany, and in this case Hungary)...

But - as nothing can be verified without the correct lead - all leads should be considered!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Hi John D.,

In those days, the name '�¼ngaria' was written with an umlaut (just don't have the shortcut on my keyboard :) )

Take a look at page 284 of Ian Hogg's "German Handguns" (code jkg). That one set me off, since it was the only KU explanation in the entire book that made sense to me. It shows "Konichliche �¼ngarische ...".

Althoug I like the link John S. mentioned as well:

K�¼chenchefs :)

About Hungarian forces under LW control:
In 1941-42 parts of the Hungarian airforce were placed under command of the VIII (8th) luftwaffe airgroup. Also, during the same era Germany was indeed topping up Hungarian supplies and airplanes.

The more I read about it, the more I come to believe that the K�¼/Luftwaffe markings on these lugers indeed have a link with Eastern-European involvement during the 1941-1945 period.

Another very interesting link.

http://www.carbinesforcollectors.com/yugo_serb.html

Especially this quote:

The Kragujevac works (unlike many of the other captured foreign arsenals and factories) was not a major source of supplemental weaponry for the Germans during WWII. The workers there en masse simply refused to cooperate with the Germans in any significant way, and the Germans feared deliberate sabotage of and damage to any arms and ammo made there (and the ammo made in Uzice) so much, that both the Kragujevac and Uzice works were all but idle during 1941-45.

Gerben,
The Hungarian link is plausable, but I have a little reservation with it because the marking on the Lugers is K�¼ and not K�?, as John D has observed in his post. I would think that �?ngarische would start with an upper case letter, again as John D questioned. Do you think that distinction is significant?

Hi Ron,

I found an English-Hungarian translation site and decided to feed k�¼ into it to see what it would come up with.

To my complete surprise it gave some full words starting with k�¼ that actually made some sense, giving the idea that it was a Hungarian abbreviation of some sort.

One nice translation was: kÃ?¼lszÃ?Â*n = air
And what about: k�¼lf�¶ldi = foreign

Isn't that nice? :)

I guess there's still a lot of digging to do regarding Eastern European WW2 marking/production/etc... but I'm hopeful. Just keep looking for a similar mark or text on other equipment.

Nice work. I have always thought that the Ku marked Lugers w/u umlaut is a pronunication, just had to find the right word and link it to Lugers. Are there any other set commonalities to these guns? This means also traits that they all do not have. Sometimes the seeing what is not present tells more that all the things that are.

rk

May I echo the "nice work" comment. The idea of the meaning of the marking being something other than German has merit and appears to make more sense than some of the traditional interpretations. Perhaps a few other languages might be explored. I am not familiar enough with European languages to know which ones employ the umlaut.

Ron, RK,

I've been translating some lengthy German texts for one of our forum members and found myself browsing quite a lot in German dictionaries as a result and although the German language has a number of k�¼ words that may fit the bill, most of them had no (logical) meaning in this situation.

But I still have to admit that the 'Hungarian' approach has some flaws. I found out that 'K�¼' is also a Hungarian family name, to complicate things even further.

What I do like about Hungary is their obvious use of k�¼ in many words, names and phrases and there still is a nice link between the luftwaffe and the Hungarian air force.

Do we have forum members with a Hungarian background?

Gerben, also, as you are aware, in Europe. capitilation is not always the norm?

I say that because many times I saw names or initials not always capitilized? I feel sometimes we put "american" usage on the rest of the world?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Ed

Hi Ed,

Well, it's kinda complicated. In Dutch we usually capitalize names and country names, but not dates. The Germans have changed a bit after the war, before it they used to capitalize about every noun and verb they could :)

But nowadays that's the general norm: Capitalize names of people, countries and places and not the rest.

Over here we're used to Americanization, especially in the computer business. The Dutch quickly discovered that it was cheaper to use US-style keyboards and English software than to use their own layouts and language on PCs. And when it's cheap, we Dutch really go for it :) That lack of chauvinism separates us from the rest of Europe. &lt;grin&gt;

That's why I believe that the Dutch wanted 'Rust' and double-sided "Geladen" on their Lugers just to nag the Germans :)

Excellent thread......

I need to think about all this for a while - but to all - especially Gerben - my thanks.....

I'm sure I'll have many questions - and for that - might set up a copy of this thread in a new Forum, so we can discuss it without detracting from Bob's original post - but this is a subject which I'm very interested in, as are many of you....

My thanks again!

John D.

Hi John,

How about a 'Top 10 K�¼ Theories' thread? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

But seriously, any comments, addional theories, debunking, etc.. is really appreciated.

Gerben, start a brand new thread and we'll just put all of the "theories" in one place.

ed

Here are some additional close ups:

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku18.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku18.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf_41_ku19.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf_41_ku19.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf_41_ku20.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf_41_ku20.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf_41_ku21.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf_41_ku21.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Gentlemen:

I just took some additional pictures of the LA proof on the receiver, as well as, the magazine. Ed has graciously agreed to add them to this thread. While taking them, I did look closer at the extractor and it is indeed more of a bronze or golden color, rather than the traditional plum. Does anyone have any ideas of why this color variation is different? Also, thanks so much to everyone who has added their thoughts to this interesting Ku discussion. I'm learning a great deal and wanted to thank all of you personally.

Best Regards,
Bob Hamilton