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Bakelite mag Question
I recently acquired a 1940 code 42 Luger, serial #49n....as captured in ww2....it has a black bakelite mag with the #49 stamped on the bottom....this gun has belonged to the same owner since captured by him from the 12th SS in Normandy 1944...has anyone else seen these mags numbered like this...Thanks..
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The only FXO mags that I've seen and consider proper with numbered black plastic bottoms are some of the KU Kreighoff production. TH
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Thanks for the reply Tom....will post some photos of the mag and rig in a day or two...Peter..
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Peter, Does the serial number on the left receiver have a KU prefix or suffix? If so, please post photo, as this would justify your numbered BPB, as far as I'm concerned. TH
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As Peter mentions he has a RIG - would it be possible to get a picture of the inside holster flap?
Also - I'm not sure why Ku are referred to as "Krieghoffs", as I've never seen any definative documentation saying these were produced, assembled or even reworked by HK? If, in theory - Mauser provided the frames/assy for the Ku Lugers, then I also don't think it's "impossible" to have a proper FXO mag stamped without the Ku prefix/suffix? For that, it would be interesting to see if the mag also has "+" stamped under the digets and/or whether the stamps on the FXO base are the same dies as used on the frame... Not to open the "great" KU debate - but... Hmmmmm - actually, it would be interesting to perhaps open the discussion in this Forum, and see where it leads..??!!! Best to all..! |
Question: Isn't the bakelite bottom of the late FXO type extruded magazine brittle? Wouldn't stamping of numbers in this type bottom result in a high casualty rate when the bakelite shatters? I would think that if there are numbers found in this type of material that it would have to be be applied with a heat or melting process instead of an impact stamp...
Comments and opinions are solicited :) |
Just to add to the discussion. Could these have been stamped before they completely hardened? Or were these made at some other place and sent to where the KU was assembled? Then I would have to agree with John about the heat process.
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I believe that the mag bottoms, whether wood, metal or bakelite, were manufactured in batches and not pre-numbered. I base this on a couple of years of manufacturing and industrial engineering... It would be too labor instensive to track a pair of plastic pieces that were in no way unique except for the number...
They may even have been made by a sub-contractor and then taken to the final assembly point for the fitting of magazines to individual pistols. This is the only method that would make sense in manufacturing... Any other method that I could imagine would be counter productive. |
The Bakelite magazines are hot when they come from the mold, but they are still too brittle to take a stamp "hit" at this stage. the Pheonolic material is very hard and has a surface polish comensurate to the polish in the mold. I agree with John that the number had to have been applied with heat rather than striking the base.
My Ku Luger does not have a number magazines, can someone provide some slose-up photos of the marked base and we can "maybe" determine if they are stamped or the number was applied by heat. It should be obvious after looking at a few photos. Just a thought. Marvin |
The few numbered BP mag bottoms that I've seen, appear to be deeply "cut" into the plastic, rather than stamped. TH
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Lugerdoc,
by "cut" do you mean scraped? or engraved (pantographed)? This could also be a possibility... and the font of the numbers would likely be different from the the numbers stamped on the gun IMHO. |
What about using the same number dies that are typically used for a strike/blow but heating up the number dies and then just pressing them against the bakelite phenolic ?
Just a wild as* guess, here...(in case Jan is reading... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> |
The pantograph method of cutting with a spinning mill-like cutter was in wide use in Germany at this time. Very effective on Bakelite, although I have not looked at on of these mags a look under a magnifer should reveal traces of rotary cutting, somewhat blurred by melting plastic
regards, heinz |
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/MVC-894S.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/MVC-895S.JPG http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/MVC-896S.JPG Here are some photos of the Gun and Mag....the number is very lightly marked on the Mag....also there is no witness mark on the Barrel??...maybe the boys at the Factory had a couple of brews at lunch!! http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/MVC-896S.JPG http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/MVC-897S.JPG |
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The photo becomes very pixelated when enlarged... the photo will need to be closer and in sharper focus to determine if the number was pantographed... I can't see any evidence of how this number was applied in this photo... even when I made it "negative" from normal colors.
There doesn't seem to be any meltover at the edges of the numbers if it was heat applied, and it doesn't look like a stamp... because it is not deep enough. http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/...temagserno.jpg |
I'm trying to decipher the inside of the holster flap (I don't see a Ku stamp), but I think I see:
"Ob. gefr" (which stands for "obergefreiter", I believe) and the date (in european format) as: 7-11-44 or November 7, 1944... I can't really make out the rest of the inscriptions, but iperhaps this was retrieved sometime after the initial Normandy invasion (given the date), and there are several records of the 12th SS who certainly did play a major role during the invasion. Here is one such link for you: 12th SS Document.... |
Just to note......
I see you are from Canada - and it is noteworthy that it was primarily the Canadians who were embroiled with the 12th SS. Apparently - they learned to dispise each other to the point that: "The Canadians especially had a deep hatred for the young men of the 12th SS and there sometimes developed a situation quite similar to the Eastern Front where no quarter was given or expected by POWs from both sides..." (See source as link above). Can you tell us the unit of the gentleman who captured this piece was in? OUTSTANDING pictures!!!!! |
I guess when it's BS, it's BS!! The pistol doesn't or shouldn't have a black bottom magazine, in the first place. The fact that it is serialized is at the least doubtful, unless it is a KU Luger (which it is not). Looks to me like it's a pig's ear trying to look like a silk purse!! But nice try!!
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John...the Story that was told to me about this gun was exactly as you mentioned....apparently the prisoners own arms were turned on them by the Canadians(including this Luger and a p38 from the same owner).....the only flaw in the Story is the date on the holster??? I will try and find out which unit he was in.....Frank....I am just showing the gun as I purchased it...the n suffix was the last batch before byf 41s....I can verify the Guns History since 1945.... and I find it interesting and appreciate the discussion about it...perhaps the Factory tried numbering the mags and it did'nt work too well!!??....59 Years ago today, a lot of young men on both sides gave their lives in that Titanic struggle...Thank God that now we live in a time of relative peace and security!!!....as Arms enthusiasts(especially Lugers)....it sure is nice now to be able to play with and discuss these things without actually having to use them...or have them used against us.....Peter..(my 2 cents worth)
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Hi Peter,
I dunno â?? one thing Iâ??ve learned in learning about Lugers after all these years â?? is itâ??s difficult to deal in â??absolutesâ?. Frank is correct â?? that itâ??s the wrong issued magazine(s) for that period â?? and on the other hand, Mr. Still shows exactly one like yours in his book, remarking that they were often field replacements. Iâ??m at the office â?? but will try to find the reference for you â?? (and a crass plug, if you donâ??t have a copy of Mr. Stillâ??s books â?? BUY a set! They are excellent! Mine sit on my nightstand). My point here is that every time I have stated that a variation doesnâ??t exist â?? invariably, I read, see or examine one that disproves my â??absoluteâ?. To me, collecting Lugers is a journey into learning â?? as the variations, combination and permutations boggle my mind. However, as for the date in your flap. Honestly â?? who knows???? A few questions and personal observations though (which may prove to be wrong â?? as I can only see the pictures, rather then the holster in person..)â?¦ It doesnâ??t appear to be a latter pen style, as there donâ??t appear to be traces of indenting the leather or the â??rubâ? marks caused by a ball point pen (or that I can see?)? The ink, as it appears in the photos, and from the serifs of the characters, appears to be made from the nib of a fountain pen. Furthermore â?? to me, given the burnishing of the letters from the carrying of the Luger in the holster â?? didnâ??t smudge the characters, as a roller pen would do. So â?? it would look to me - like your holster was marked by the original owner, rather then the returning vet who was trying to imitate the German/European gothic script - given that the Luger appears to have actually "rubbed" characters off through carrying it in the holster and the gun "burnishing" the leather/writing from those high-spots. About the actual date (7-11-44), again â?? WHO KNOWS?!?!!? Was that the date the flap was inscribed? Beats meâ?¦ For all I know â?? it was the date that the soldier was to visit his first brothel, or his motherâ??s birthday, or his wifeâ??s next birthday, or when he was anticipating going home., or â?? well, you get the idea.. The date I find interesting, but as a cursory interest, rather then proving/disproving the validity of the piece. As for the mag stamps. If one is stamped to be a spurious attempt to inflate the RIG value, then why is only one mag stamped? As well â?? if that were the case, and as Frank notes â?? why would the *wrong* mags be used to begin with if this piece were inflated? So â?? I tend to believe that these are original to when this Luger was captured. Further, I also donâ??t believe that only KU mags were serialized â?? but believe others may well exist (see my first paragraph about â??absolutesâ? :) ) For all that â?? I would like to know â??howâ? these were stamped, and perhaps whyâ?¦?? Was it an armorer? The factory? I donâ??t know those either â?? but Iâ??m enjoying the conversation â?? and would like to know *how* they were marked without destroying the bakelite..??? Oh â?? and my last thought about Luger collecting??? My mind is like a parachute â?? it works best when it stays openâ?¦. :) And yep â?? I take some barbs as well for that philosophy, but thatâ??s OKâ?¦!!!! Just my $0.000000002 |
That date looks like 7-16-44 to me. And not all Europeans used the format day-month-year in casual writing anyway. (I should know, I grew up in a German family.) Even if it is 7-11-44, I think the writer meant July 11th, 1944. And the 12th SS was in heavy action during that week.
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Dear fellows,
I can't say anything about the pistol (a good one), but in my opinion the holster was not owned by a SS member, that because "obergefreiter" (more or less 1st corporal) is a rank proper only for army and air force, while in waffen ss system the same rank was called "rottenfhurer". My 2 € cents |
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