1900 British Luger Photo...
 

Thought this Early Luger section needed a luger photo post to start things off...

This "drop dead gorgeous" 1900 British photo is from the Imperial Arms web site...

Gota go wipe off the drool from my keyboard, now... <img src="graemlins/oops.gif" border="0" alt="[oops]" />

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/1900British.jpg

Very pretty, those look like Hugh did those grips [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

That is an excellent early Luger Pete. As a matter of fact, it pre-dates 1900. Since you identified it as British, it almost has to be one of the two sent to England for testing and is actually an 1899 pre-production. I believe it is serial number 26, and still resides in the pattern room in England. I am not sure what happened to the second one but I think it might be in a collection here in the States now.

Here is an 1898 Transitional Serial #5:
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/1898Serial5.jpg

And here's an 1899 Transitional. The frame has started to be lightened.

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/1899Serial6.jpg

It's great seeing more and more Forum members are getting the hang of the photo thing on our new Forum...

Wonderful Transitional photos, Wes !!!

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Yeah, I had a problem with the name of my pic. It was originally 1898TransitionalSerial#5.jpg. It loaded onto the server, but would not display. So I figured that either the name was too many characters or the "#" was blocking the interpretation of it. I eliminated both options and then it was visible.
Too much of the vine this evening! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" /> <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" /> <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

That second 1899 transitional is serial number 6. According to accounts, it started out identical to number 5, then was taken back from the Swiss and modified as it exists now. It belongs (or at least it used to and may still) to a Swiss private collector and is as beautiful as the picture shows.

The first British Luger just happens to be my favorite photo of any Luger I have ever seen. That is just what a rare collector Luger should look like. The color of the grips is outstanding and the matching mag makes for a beautiful transitional test piece. Thanks Pete for posting it, thanks to Imperial Arms for hosting the picture and thanks Ron for a little more detail on it. That is one Luger that would be worth making big payments every month to own (and throwing in my pet goat as collateral). Those transitional pictures really can give a person 'Luger fever', if you know what I mean.

<img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />
Absolutely! I left off the identification because I suppose Ernest and Julio (Gallo) were prompting me to show what a total lack of consideration for others that I could have. And.....I guess I showed 'em.

Regards,
wes

Ron,
Serial number 23 was a British test piece, but is not a complete pistol, only parts. Serial number 25 and 26 were British test pieces. Serial number 25 and 23 were apparently identical, but serial number 26 is GL proofed, has a hand engraved Swiss Cross on the chamber and resides in the Pattern Room Collection.

Thanks Johnny. I was working off the top of my head (lots of room there now that the hair is getting thin!) so I'm glad I got the 26 and location correct. I am almost positive that 25 is in the States now.

I am glad that the forum members are becoming more enthusiastic about using images to make there point clearer as well as to start off new subjects of great interest. I noticed that some of my images are being used from my website Imperial Arms which is acceptable to me.

I would like to kindly make two corrections which were wrongly stated about the 1900 British Test Luger #26 referring from detailed photos I took of this Luger in the Pattern Room, Nottingham in 1996. Firstly, this Luger is NOT 'GL' hallmarked as mentioned by Johnny Peppers and, Ron, it is not exactly pre-1900 because this Luger was delivered to the British around April-May 1901 for testing. It does have some pre-production characteristics such as the Borchardt boarderline grips; the double recoil spring retainer; the one millimeter longer firing pin; the unrelieved magazine bottom; and the engraved Swiss cross on the chamber. The toggle link is standard round like a 1900 model and the sear has probably been replaced as a result of its straw color.

I thought this information might he helpful to some of the Luger Forum members.

Albert

I will be the first to admit that I have not personally seen the Luger in question, but was using information that had previously been reported on the pre 1900 pistols.
I have personally seen one Luger that previously did not have the GL proof that now proudly wears one. The GL strike has a life of it's own.

Those are some of the most stunningly beautiful Luger pics I have EVER seen! WOWOWOWO <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

Imperial Arms,
The information on No.26 is found in Fred Datig's series "The Swiss Variations" Monograph IV. He does not picture No.26, but does picture No.33 which he indicates was in the Ralph Shattuck collection at the time of publication and shows the GL mark on the rear of the toggle. He goes on to to compare No.19 which is in Switzerland, and No.26 which is in England. He details the hand fitting, engraved Swiss Cross on the chamber, no logo, and ends it with "these rare "GL" marked specimens".
We must accept the information provided us until
information to the contrary is authenticated. No.19 is also indicated in another source as having the GL marked toggle, and if you have any information to the contrary on this pistol, it too would be appreciated.

Hello Albert from Imperial Arms :

When ever I use a photo that I did not take, I always try to give the proper photo credit...

And you are correct, I was trying to use a really nice photo of a beautiful gun to spark interest and discussions...

Regards,

Pete...

Albert
Thank you for allowing the use of your photos. I think we all envy the fact that you had the opportunity to handle and photograph these fabulous weapons!
Based on your description of Serial #26, I am convinced that even though it may have been delivered to England in 1901, it is indeed an 1899 pre-production example. Six of the pre-production Swiss test pieces were delivered to England for their tests. That explains the Swiss Cross in Sunburst on #26 even though it was subject to the English trial. All of the other features you described have been attributed to the 1899 configuration, to include the strawed sear bar. I do not know if you also photographed the top of #26, but if you did, you might examine it for one other feature. The rear toggle link has a T-shaped configuration. The "top" of the T is narrower on the pre-production pieces than the 1900 toggle. I do not have a pre-production example to photograph (darn! [img]frown.gif[/img] ) but I have "doctored" a 1900 toggle to show the difference. I hope I am succesful in posting it.http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/18...0Composite.jpg

OK. It seems that I got past that first photo hurdle, so let's try another to show a feature of the very early 1899 pre-production pieces. On the earliest examples, the front toggle link joint was square where it hinged on the rear toggle link, as opposed to the rounded configuration found on all later Lugers. Some of these early pieces were later modified to incorporate the radiused link, but they still retained the "short" T configuration. The "doctored" photo below shows this square link.
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Early1899.jpg

Gentlemen,

I must say that I am enjoying this subject and, Ron, I appreciate your 'artistic' talents in explaining some details - well done!

Calion, I shall soon post an image of the top view of the British Test Luger serial #26 which does NOT have a 'GL' on the rear of the toggle. You must understand that Fred Datig made a mistake 20-30 years ago when he bundled together the various pre-production Lugers together and stated that they had 'GL' hallmarks. Furthermore, Luger serial #5 does NOT have a 'GL', most likely because the rear toggle link was replaced during the 1898 tests (it carries magazine serial #10), whereas serial #6 has a 'GL' hallmark (as well as on the magazine) which surprises me. I shall withhold my reasons for the latter to avoid any controversy.

For your information, serial #19 (with a 'GL') is a 1899 pre-production model with the short non-reinforced rear toggle (see Ron's images) and it is probably the only correct pre-production model known to exist - unfortunately, it was taken from the Thun Museum and it cannot be found! Somewhere in my files, I have a photocopy of Swiss model 1899 serial #20(?) which is documented in the Swiss Pistol Commission journals and the safety area is polished like a 1900 model!

Albert at Imperial Arms

[quote]Originally posted by Imperial Arms:
<strong> the 1898 tests (it carries magazine serial #10), whereas serial #6 has a 'GL' hallmark (as well as on the magazine) which surprises me. I shall withhold my reasons for the latter to avoid any controversy.

Albert at Imperial Arms</strong><hr></blockquote>

I do hope that we have not eliminated the possibility for controversy which is reasoned, informed, and civil.

--Dwight

This is really interesting you guys!

I think this forum has brought some really good information this last week

[img]cool.gif[/img]

I believe No. 6 was for sale in Europe some four or five years ago for near $500,000 US, and if I remember correctly had apparently been modified as the design evolved.

In co-operation with the detailed images posted by Ron, I would like to provide an image of the upper receiver of British Test Luger serial #26. Notice that the rear toggle link is round; there are TWO firing pin retainer springs; and there is NO 'GL' on the rear toggle.

Albert

Imperial Arms

http://beliard.home.att.net/Images/B...uger-Upper.jpg

In addition to my previous post, I would like to provide a close-up image of the toggle of British Test Luger serial #26.

http://beliard.home.att.net/Images/B...ger-Toggle.jpg

Hello Albert,

Thanks so much for the nice photos.

I knew that some of the very early 1900 and transitional lugers had extractors that were strawed...

I did not know that the sear-bar "thingy" on the side of the receiver was strawed as well...

Great to learn something new !

Hey Albert!
I also thank you for the photos! I captured the close-up toggle image, did a little scale adjusting and superimposed it on the 1900 toggle image. It definately appears that #26 has the wide reinforced toggle "T". This would indicate that when the toggle was replaced after the 1898 trials as you have indicated, the receiver rails were also faced back to accommodate the wider T.
This is neat stuff! Hope we can do more of it! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Hey Ron,

Accepting the fact that the Swiss and Dutch made modifications to the pre-production Lugers during the various tests, what is your opinion on the strawed sear on British Test Luger #26? Do you think the British tried to improve on the sear in England or changed it, or did it come from DWM in this manner? Do you think the Swiss Cross on the chamber for a Luger sent to England for testing was used for a marketing strategy by DWM? Do any of the so-called early 'Dutch' Test Lugers have a Swiss cross on the chamber?

I know for a fact that the British were not satisfied with 7.65 mm cartridge after testing it on (dead) sheep to determine penetration and woundage, but do you believe that they also made comments about various parts of the Lugers that may have been flawed in the same manner as the Swiss who were quite 'critical' about weight, triggers, safety etc?

Your comments and opinions as well as other forum members would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Albert

Albert
I believe that the strawed sear bar is original as manufactured by DWM. I think that it follows the early practice as is exemplified by the strawed sear bar on the Borchardt and the 1898 prototype piece serial number 5. Serial number 6 has a blued sear bar, but it also was extensively modified at a later date, so it too may originally had a strawed sear bar.

I think that the English test pieces were taken from the lot provided originally to the Swiss for testing, hence the Swiss markings.

I do not have any first-hand knowledge of the Dutch test pieces, and can only go by what I believe is the best reference on the Dutch Luger, that of Bas Martens and Guus de Vries. I would hazard a guess that the very early test pieces did not have a Swiss Cross. I think that the Dutch were doing their testing contemporary with the Swiss, therefore DWM created individual pieces for the Dutch just as they did for the Swiss. As Martens and de Vries document, the very first Luger provided to the Dutch in 1899 was a sholder-stocked example! I would love to find that one! It is hard to tell how the second two test examples, serial numbers 35 and 36, were marked. Serial number 36 was almost certainly of the 1899 configuration since it was documented that it had a "somewhat" longer breech block. Serial number 35 is pictured in the book, but it has been extensively modified, so whether or not it originally bore the Swiss Cross can't be determined from the photo. And so it goes. Questions only lead to more questions. Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a time machine.

Thank you for all the wonderful information I have gotten.
It is really fun to learn, you all have helped me so much since I found this place.

Clay Sharps