9MMX19 reloading
 

I recently run out of my bullet for the 9mmx19. I bought a fair amount of 115 FMJ commercial Winchester bullets years ago. As a reloader, I was taught to bell as little as possible with a jacketed bullet, and run the completed rounds thru a case checker or the barrel itself. Always did a pretty good champher on the case mouth as well. All my brass is once fired from the local PD ranges, bought some over the years and stashed.

So one day, I run out of the Winchester 115 FMJ bullets. So having not bought bullets for a while, the prices in larger quantities put me back a little, so I bought some plated bullets. Did the usual routine on the Dillon, and shot some thru a Browning HP GP and some Lugers, no problems.

The completed plated bulleted cartridges looked good to the eye, no bulges, scrapes, etc; so did not run thru the gages.

About this time, a year ago, i decided to try out the current century of handgun, and bought a new striker fired semi auto, large capacity mags, kinda all new to me.

Shot about 500 plated rounds thru the new pistol, all is well, once you get used to all the synthetics and weight(light).

Then one day, one the last round of the mag, I suffered a severe blowout, the case ruptured at the rim area and the case was swelled about 2 tenths up. Nothing other than that, sounded the same, felt the same. I use a Unique load that is about halfway up the books, so double charge is not likely because of volume.

Needless to say, after a while at reloading(40 years plus) that took me back, never had that happen before. So I started looking at bullets in the MTM boxes to be shot, and some of them looked odd straight on.

I dusted off the case gages(like I should have before) and about half would not fully insert into the gage(Dillon). Most would stick out about 0.050" or so, a few more than that.

I was hoping that the pistol would give some protection to an out of battery problem with the disconnector. This particular pistol is new on the market relatively speaking, and when loaded with an empty 9x21 case, the disconnector does its thing. I can however, put a correctly lengthed 9mmx19 into the firearm and slowly close the action, the user can feel the slide/trigger engage, and stop, then pull the trigger, the slide jumps forwards a tiny amount and the firing pin drops. So something seems to be going on there to me, but just a simplistic opinion.

I would surmise that a strong hold would help with most things, a soft hold would irritate the breeching completion, especially on a slide that has been lightened as this one has.

In examining the plated bullets, slightly cocked in the completed cartridge as reloaded; I revamped my Dillon progressive dedicated to 9mm. I took the route of the lead bullet guys and bell the heck out of the empty case, and firmed up my taper crimp. This seemed to help a lot by allowing 90% of my reloaded 9mms to pass the gage test. Still have a few to go in boxes of bullets, always buy in 1000 piece lots which sometimes bites me I guess.

Things I have noted about plated bullets. They deform easily, as just plating over lead. Not very tolerant of a minimum champer, cuts rings off the bottom of the bullet. Seems that the coefficient of friction is more stout than with fmj bullets, seem to grab the inside of the case, just my opinion again from feel during seating. Some will show the case mouth pushed back some, ie the bullet grabbed the edge and deformed the case mouth very slightly.

So I am about ready to cry uncle and throw in the towel with plated bullets for autos. Probably will still use them for revolvers and single shots. Not completely there yet,as thinking I am missing something easy...........

All these years I have never used graphite as an inside the neck lube. My old mentor said, try it, the graphite; if you like it or not. I never thought it did anything for me with the components of the time, all jacketed. I did cast and reload for lead bullets in my early days, but the heavy belling did the trick ok without graphite etc. Probably will buy my first graphite lube kit just to see.

So a query to the shooters of autos here that have used the new plated bullets.............what am I missing????

I probably will just revert to my old ways, and buy a couple of cases of fmj's again for the autos; and suffer the checkbook fatigue some.

The use of the cartridge gage is super important, the old guy here fell in the well some, so on my bench the gages are back out...............and being used again. After the first million of rounds(exaggeration) you get over confident I guess, twas a mistake on my part. I am hoping that my talking might cause some to ponder their technqiue even if they are not new to the game.

Rick, you are being awfully coy about the 'new' semi-auto. What brand, model, manufacturer is it??? :confused:

Rich,

While I am a little distrustful of the new striker fired, pistol, my reloads are subject to some lookseeing and the real point of my posting.

Twas my first buy of that pistol brand; and even bought another higher dollar one later before my event. The second pistol's disconnecter is pretty tight up, some pistols as we know are kinda loose with disconnectors, especially war pistols, always wanna go bang and then figure things out later on if the bang was not quite kosher.

Guess I will not mention the pistol brand as it seems to run with decent ammo. Just wanted some insight on reloading improvements.

I have no experience with plated bullets, so FWIW some striker fired 9's, (Glocks, H&K, etc) use polygonal rifling and are not designed for cast or plated cast bullets. I have gone to loading Missouri Bullet Co. 9 cone coated bullets OR shooting Wolf steel jacket 9mm. The Lugers seem to like both.
dju

Rick,

I have been loading plated bullets for years in many calibers, but have not tried them in 9mm, because I have a "ton" of 9mm FMJ bullets. The plated bullets start with very soft lead and then apply a very thin layer of copper to them. Xtreme bullets use a thicker coating of copper than others, and Berry's Mfg. bullets offer a double plated bullet. These two brands are my "go to" brands. I don't think that they are a accurate as FMJ bullets, but I don't shoot much beyond 50 Ft. at the range that I shoot at(senior eyes cause that).


In my experience/loading, I do not champher any of the case mouths, nor do I utilize a case gauge. I check the finished cartridges in the chamber(with the barrel removed) for the "plunk test". If my rounds pass the plunk test, then they are good to go. For my revolvers, I test them in the cylinders. Once I am satisfied with the finished product, I do no further testing/checking of my reloaded rounds unless I experience a problem.


Loading plated bullets are much more akin to loading lead, than loading FMJ bullets. I apply a good bell to the cartridge mouth so that the bullet will sit on the case mouth without assistance from my fingers. Not enough belling will result in "pushing" the plating up when trying to seat the bullet, and may well tear the plating. I do use a case lube to resize my brass(easier on my shoulder), but have not used any other lubes with my Dillon 650.


You want to apply just enough crimp to remove the belling. If you over-crimp, you stand a good chance of cutting through the plating. Load a couple of dummy rounds completely, and then with a kinetic puller, pull the bullet. You should find no more than a very FAINT line on/in the bullet from the case mouth. Any more than that, and you are over crimping.


These are the procedures that have worked for me with these bullets. I started loading only lead bullets back in 1972, and loaded them for years. As of a few years ago, I only load lead for 38-40 and some 7.65Para brass.......the other calibers(8-9) are loaded with plated or FMJ. On the Black Friday sale at Xtreme Bullets, I purchased 8K rounds of their bullets, so I guess one could say that I am satisfied with loading plated bullets for semi-auto and revolvers.



Hope some/any of this info will be of help to you. ;)

Ruff,

Your very careful reloading procedures sound fine to me.

Sounds like you may have a defective pistol, or at least, a defective part.

By the way, the Luger was one of the very first "striker fired" pistol designs.

Respectfully,


Sieger

PS: A uniform bullet diameter of no larger than .356 should function perfectly for the 9MM.

Dave,

The Missouri 9MM Cone coated bullet should work perfectly in a Luger, though I have my doubts regarding the Wolf steel cased stuff.

Respectfully,


Sieger

I've been using swaged jacketed bullets from Armscor that are available in bulk from online reloading suppliers.



I have tried both plated and poly-coated bullets and don't like either of them.


i gauge inspect every round I make as I stack them into boxes.

Thanks for the notes from everyone, they are appreciated here; thanks for you all taking time for me.

rHuff's and my procedures are pretty close in techniques. All learned over the years I reckon.

I am a bit leary about the pistol, not so much in parts or whatever, but might need a touch in final fitting of the breeching. Tis the linkless design fwiw. I believe with SAAMI ammo specs, it will be ok really; thinking the buck stops with me sorta speak.

I am pretty much in concert with getting the recipe down and then just shooting as well. With the blowout I wished that I had done more(famous hindsight routine), but after the first mass quantities of that ammo, I floated some I guess.

I have measured this lot of bullets by Berry's until blue in the face, all are right on the numbers. So that leads me to my technique when I make up a bullet into a case that will not pass muster in the gage. I just have not found it. I cannot trace the abbynormals to a vendor of brass case either.

I like Dillon too, a 450L(9mm), new square deal(45acp) and a 1050 for 38 special wadcutter. Once the recipe is found, the machines do not change intentionally. My 45 acp loads, again with measured Berry's 200 gr SWC will show up a few that will not gage(same oddity near bullet insertion area). Both the 9mm machine and 45 acp machine were redone for recipe in function after the oddites showed up. No blowups with the 45 acp in my 745 yet; but we are tying to be more diligent here.

I probably will consider letting go of the new 9mm pistol after a trip back to the vendor if they will accept it for a looksee.

I probably have overdone as rhuff said about the taper crimp, usually just a little does all we need, but at the time I thought the oversized exterior was near the case mouth.

A friend of mine is using a bullet that I am unfamiliar with, so will get his take on the new stuff in his pistols. Also will take a looksee into the other mentioned bullet makers and perhaps try them as well. I had almost 10K of the Winchester jacketd bullets, but time marched on, and they are gone. Buying the same again will hurt more, but perhaps will allow me to get on with life........... :)

still diggin...........

Rick,

Good luck with your search.

Respectfully,


Sieger

Don't forget that 9mm Luger headspaces on the case mouth. Upon insertion into the chamber, it stops when the mouth reaches the correct depth against a shoulder step in the chamber.

If you taper too much, it might either miss the shoulder or cant against it at a slight angle if the chamber is cut loose.

This is one reason I don't overwork the mouth of a 9mm case by "belling" it large for bullet insertion. Just a slight amount is enough to center the bullet to be pressed in properly.

Yes, I have the same concepts about belling, crimping, champering. I experienced shaving of the base of the plated bullet in my original setup, then belled more to allow the base to start easily; then I experienced the bullet being seating off the line of the bore, ie the bottom was on line, but the top veered to the right some,.........so when rolled on the table, the nose would go up/down...........kinda embarrassing to an old guy.

So with that, I belled more and thought I was there; but still have say 10% that will not gage.

a belling rod has the belling feature, but also has a lower feature to normalize the resized case where the bullet ends up. I am using mixed brass, like the other 30 years without troubles, but do notice differences in pressure to seat a plated bullet; even maxibelling.

I may examine the belling feature as to both bell and expanding features to see if that makes sense. I can always make one up I reckon but not sure if I am up the right tree yet or not. My reloading dies for the 9mm are not Dillon,and are economy type one might say, but been ok so far. I have scrapped 30 Luger dies by this vendor, but the 9mm straight wall has always been ok; well for a long time anyway. Perhaps time to use my head rather than just trust what I can buy.

It may be possible, that the plated bullet does not glide down gracefully down the belled(internally sized) case too good. Guess been at it too long, might have to take a breather to see the measuring sticks right again.

Might as well do a looking at the seater too............or heck, go buy a set of expensive dies huh?............. :)..........maybe whine to a couple of friends to borrow a high quality die set.

thanks for the pointers and good wishes.............. :)

Me thinks that you are all side-tracked on all this belling conversation. As I mentioned, some new 9's are not designed for cast bullets, plated or otherwise. Also some are very sensitive to the length of the shoulder of the bullet: My PPQ will not take a rounded Parabellum bullet, thus my use of the 9 Cone design. So if the round won't chamber completely, whether the chamber is leaded or if the bullet is contacting the lands, a rim separation is more likely
Yes, the finished product should pass the "plunk" test, but don't ruminate over the minutia.
dju

This morning I took the Dillon reloader apart and reset it up for the 9mm. Using my experience and reflecting on comments here, I dutifully set up each die. I went with a minimum bell and a conservative crimp, just enough to fit the gage. Guess it is hard for me to consider plunk a technical thing...........:)

My first cartridge of the day with the newly adjusted machine, was..............perfect.

The second would not enter fully the gage by about a tenth.

I tried a champer on the next case, it gaged. Tried another one with the prechamper, would not gage, about a tenth out.

Tried lubing the bullet base with a champer on the mouth of the case, did not gage.

The cartridges that do not gage, all exhibit an offset from center of bore line..........roll the cartridge on the table........get the ups and downs of the nose of the bullet.

I measured parameters of the belling die and the seating die; nothing stands out other than perhaps the fitment of the seating die. It has the rounded insert for round nose bullets, but am eyeing that feature a little this morning. Might take it out to the lathe to enlarge the cavity there just for something to do on a bad weather day.

I am a victim of my own thought processing, detail is everything. The buck stops here and no where else. Just because something was amiss with tooling or method, the result is the same; and tis up to me to fix it. Guess that is why I held my position in the defense industry for so many years.......even was respected which in later years got harder to do with the new management style of blame goes downward.

It would be interesting to hear about the new chambers in the newer polymer guns, perhaps a new thread huh? Hard to imagine a big maker marketing a new pistol to the masses that predominately do not reload, buys the cheapo 250 round box; would use a non-SAAMI spec. It would be interesting in another thread to hear details about such adventures and why they did such in today's saturated market.

Here is why I am interested, a couple of poor picts. Appears to fired out of battery, but why............I have the two suspicions, but jury is still out here. Sending the pistol back to the manufacturer is really not much use, been there and done that a time or two; so probably will become a safe queen unless the Rick can come to grips with whys. I am somewhat thankful that this did not happen with a full mega magazine full of rounds, happened on the last round. Debris in the face a little, threw the extractor across the room(reused), and blackened things up some. The load is with unique, so a double charge does not seem too feasible, no debris on the star of the press at any time fwiw. Report was normal, not a biggie boom/flash etc etc.

I have beat this to death, but as usual; detail does not come easy. I am done with the thread, thanks for the comments.

I scrapped my 30 Luger die set from "this vendor" also, and will purchase no more full sets from them. Mine were very poor quality and would not produce a loaded round that was acceptable to me. Perhaps it was just the set that I purchased, but I will not take that risk again. I am a bit OCD as to my reloading!!

I think your problems could be traced to using "range" brass- you have no idea how many times it has been fired or with what loads or "over loads" or in what oversize chamber and then worked down again, maybe more than once.

Perhaps using range brass is being pennywise and pound foolish? JMO.

Mrerick,

I, very respectfully, disagree, as the 9MM Luger case is a tapered case, not a straight walled one (though ever so slightly).

It stops, against the barrel, somewhere near the head of the case, not at the mouth of the case.

Respectfully,


Sieger

David,

Are you telling us that your new Walther will not fire standard 9MM round nose ball ammo? I find this a little hard to believe.

Respectfully,


Sieger

Don,

Not bad general advice, as mixed range brass is an gamble at best.

I would try to use brass I have fired myself, all of the same head stamp, all of which I knew how they had been loaded.

I have, many times in the past, purchased once fired WCC military brass (crimped and sealed primer pockets) and have been very pleased with its performance in my Lugers (excellent accuracy, perfect function).

Know your components, gentlemen!


Respectfully,


Sieger

The once fired WCC sounds like a safe bet.

I just hate to think of wasting the time reloading unreliable ammo. Life is too short. JMHO. ;)

David,
Are you telling us that your new Walther will not fire standard 9MM round nose ball ammo? I find this a little hard to believe.



No. I am saying that using the Missouri Bullet Company "Parabellum" 9 mm RN lead cast bullets in reloads the Walther PPQ will not allow them far enough into the barrel in order to close the slide completely as the lands actually contact the shoulders of the bullets. This only happens with those bullets because they are much more round than tapered or pointed. They look a bit like mini-.45ACP ball bullets. However those same bullets/loads DO work entirely fine in the Lugers.
dju

Dave,

Strangely, I have experienced just the opposite with Missouri's 124 Grain Cast Round Nose Bullets.

When loaded to proper O.A.L., 1.173 inches, they cause constant jams in my Lugers.

As you suggest, the overly rounded bullet tip may be the cause of the problem.


Respectfully,


Sieger

I was about to set off on making myself a die in the garage this afternoon. I had read various articles about die designs improving in the past decade or so............then it dawned on me the issue. Me, not being overly intelligent, finally figured things out..........abeit slowly.

So I tried loading up 150x of 9mm's with the new deal and existing die set; same components that gave me fits. All gaged. Could not do that before, all were straight and fit in the gage nicely.

So......I think.............I found it.

As to brass, I explained earlier that I mainly use once fired local police brass when they qualify folks. So I have confidence in the source. Also some friends that do not reload but shoot heavily every week, have taken pity on me and gather their once fired brass........for me. I have made them wooden pistol cases in return, so all evens out. No, I do not go to a range pick out brass from the mud etc etc.....When I buy once fired preowned brass, 2-3 cents per case; so more economical than new. I would like to use new for everything, but I shoot too much and loss is high; besides my preowned brass suffices for my range work/plinking/fun. I think some of the choice of brass comes from working knowledge and knowing the source.

So as most things, you gotta stay with it if you wanna know more. This was a exasperating time, but we got thru it and ready to reap the rewards; not only from a $ point of view, but the pride of figuring it out rather than throwing mass quantities of money at it.........I was close to the latter, but lucked out at the last minute.

Rick,

All's well that ends well!


Sieger

feels good..............very satisfying.............

So what was the actual solution/fix?
dju

Dave,

Only Rick seems to know.


Sieger

I want to know!!!! I can't promise that I will remember it, but maybe. :roflmao:

In my particular environment, I was using a press from one vendor and dies from another vendor. Use what you have, it don't matter right? A press is a press, a die is a die right?

Not for a long, long time. But.........lately it did with different components. My original buy of 115 fmj Winchester bullets did me good for most of my shooting lifetime.

I fussed with the belling, overthought it, beat on it, whined with it etc; finally I feel in my own opinion that these plated bullets need more of a lead bullet type bell than a fmj type bullet bell. I am now at ease with that.

The seater that I have used for years in this setup with the 9mm, never screwed down to what some would call the proper vertical setup; was physically limited by the press top thickness and the die threading/nut.

Seating dies do their best to align bullets for entry into the brass case. My die was not fully in place; not completely seated correctly in the area of the bottom of seater die to ram surface. So I was not completely taking advantage of all of its alignment advantages.

So I am somewhat familiar with threading of parts and chasing of existing threading. The die threads are 7/8-14 fwiw to those that care. Chasing of existing threads is not too tough, so the cheapo die as I call it(just a name, nothing implied about real quality) now inserts where it should. I am now just off touching the roll crimp, which has more support during seating that before; not a lot; I know exactly how much, but won't bore the masses with that number. Once seated the cartridge is moved to a taper crimp die that does a modest capture of the bullet.

So just looking at the setup, did not infer the problem. I had to read and read about new concepts in seating dies, and trying apply those ideas to my seater die. Then it finally dawned...........the plated bullets in my loading situation needs all the edge that I can get in alignment assists. I loaded several hundred yesterday and today with all finished cartridges gaging properly.

So now it on to the square deal to figure out why the same alignment issues are occurring. Don't worry I won'[t post about that adventure here............:)

The plated bullets are what they are, less expensive; and are currently allowed on indoor ranges. Everything has nuances and limitations; some of those take time to figure out. Instant gratification syndrome never entered here, did not have anything hired done; or new purchases............although came close this time.

I have relearned my lesson again about posting here about detailed considerations; I will try to be more restrained in the future.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but if I may summarize, briefly:
You increased the threads on the dies so they seat more deeply in the press, thereby giving better alignment of the bullet to the bore.
And you are concluding that this previous mis-alignment was the cause of the case rupture discussed in the original post?
Is this correct?
dju

David,

If you are not trying to put words in my mouth, I would simply suggest............. "don't"...........life is simpler that way.

My recent reloaded ammo had its problems. Showed up gradually, was really not noticeable in general shooting until my event happened. What totally caused the event to happen, lots of factors there; still to be processed by me.

I would surmise that bad ammo, ie some that would not gage properly would cause any handgun to have its ills. Autos have sensing devices to try to prevent events like I experienced, but still we see a few get out. I reckon some are never figured out fully; I am ok with that, life goes on. I am not sure factory ammo is the absolute cure all for problems with firearms, I have lost quite a few points in qualifications due to faulty factory ammo, so guess everyone has their day or troubles.

Used to be a lot of people reloaded or shot 9mm here, most of the reloaders are gone now for some reason. But thought a few lurkers might still appreciate the issues and approaches to making better ammo, and to renew practices that check tolerance if they got a bit lax like I did.............guess twas my mistake.

Don,

No one knows what short time of life is like more than me, borrowed time is so sweet..................so how I spend it with new brass or preowned brass is my own affair.

Rick:
My apologies if I got it wrong. Is "I don't know" the final answer?
I ask only because a number of knowledgeable persons have offered up years of experience in assisting you and may appreciate some "closure" here too.
dju

I thought I gave the reloaders some closure with putting in a correction to my loading system. They can peruse that all they want, and draw their own conclusions.............most of the reloaders I sensed here have fair comprehensional skills. And they think for themselves; not exactly a sky is falling group one might say.

No apology needed, the comment established positions in my eyes. I am not new to reloading even though I may sound that way, and did take that the wrong way.

The possible pistol woes, if any in reality, will be pondered in the future; no.......... I am not going to name the pistol etc etc. I am going to go thru the pistol myself, the best I can, but you can be sure I will not post that adventure here.

I was having some of the same problems. My cure was a Lee factory crimp die. During set up, I use a strong magnifying glass and look at the end of the case to see if there is any outward bell at the case mouth after the bullet is seated and crimped. If there is, I just adjust the die a little bit at a time, reinsert the case and check it again.

I also check all of my reloads with a case gauge. Especially the ammo I use in a match.

As far as plated ammo, I’ve shot thousands of rounds of xtreme bullets through different guns. I load to the velocities listed for lead bullets in the manual.

I have read a little about the Lee factory crimp die. Looks like a worthwhile acquisition, works for you looks like.

My 9mm reloading was on a Dillon progressive that took generic reloading dies, 7/8-14. I think that has been worked out as per my last posts. Ammo seems to work again even with newer components.

My 45acp reloading now is on a square deal by Dillon which has small dies unique to that system. It really has no alignment system much, but with a compromise in belling/taper crimping; we get pretty good ammo now, all passes the gage tests easily; even with the plated bullets that gave issues. Not all wine and roses yet, but getting there I hope.

Last time to the range with a new beater Kimber CDP, my 45 gaged ammo, about 100 rounds, had four that would not feed into the chamber fro the magazine, go in about 90% and stop dead. Could not push it shut etc. Put those four in my pocket and went home...........all four would gage fine and easily. All four would enter the Kimber barrel with ease. So I dubbed them, the fab four; why don't know, but they had new notoriety.

I noticed the magazine feed angle for the top cartridge was up a bit, so theory said, the exposed area of the plated bullet was rubbing on top of the chamber, just a theory. So I adjusted the feed lips of the colt magazine to feed those four. Now everything feeds again, until the next oddity comes up. Has been a trip with the new components, almost like learning all over again. Have been looking for a case or two of real plated bullets, but kinda a scarce item now.

Good news on the Lee crimp die with the collet on top, I have wondered about that for the 30 Luger. Something to keep in the pocket sorta speak. I appreciate everyone's time in my trip here.

Rick,

I am having very good luck with the Lee Factory Crimp die on loading bottle neck brass. As you stated, it is a collet crimp system with bottle neck brass, and works especially well, on 30 Luger, and 38-40 brass. No need to trim any of the brass, which I really am thrilled with. I have just recently started using one on my 45ACP loads with plated bullets, as I would occasionally find a round or two that would not go fully into battery on my 1911s. The jury is still out on it's use on the 45ACP brass. :evilgrin: