New Luger. Can someone help tell me what I found?
 

I just got this yesterday and was sent to this forum to help identify what I got. Anyone tell me more about this fine firearm?

First glance says it’s a DWM commercial Luger, looks like a pre-war one since the barrel appears to be 4 5/8” long. Would need more pictures, especially those of any/all proof marks and serial numbers. Which will be located on the trigger guard on the front of the frame, underneath the side plate and takedown lever, underside of the barrel, and on the toggle links for sure. They might also be on the toggle link pin in the rear, firing pin, and the inside of the grips among other places, but some examples are also left unmarked and this is considered normal. I am sure that one of the moderators will post a link to it, but all of us would recommend you read the FAQ document that can be found as one of the tabs of the home page to help answer questions. Several YouTube videos also show how to properly disassemble your Luger to check for proofs and serial numbers, but if you are uncomfortable do this yourself, take it to a gunsmith who does know how to do so without damaging it.

Side note, there doesn’t seem to be a pin that should go down through the left toggle knob and that looks like an empty hole, not sure I’ve seen that before and I don’t know what, if any, problems that may cause. Merry Christmas to you and congrats on your new acquisition.

I made it so you would get notified - welcome to the forum and Merry Christmas

It doesn't have any proof markings on the left or right, and a 1908 would be on the left

the 295 on the barrel is weird

Caliber? - it would be 7.65mm (30 luger) or 9mm luger - take a common pencil, a 30 luger will go down barrel tighter, while if 9mm it will just all up and down.
----
several notes
1. better to post pictures here than google
2. no other markings makes me think its been reblued a bit too hard

Ed

Missing the toggle pin.
Anyone else find the ring around the base of the barrel odd? Looks thick and almost looks like an add-on.

David that was my reaction as well, that the barrel was changed at some point. More photos are needed, not sure if I see a stock lug or not.

The missing pin is a concern, it serves as a stop to keep the toggle axel in place. The pistol should not be fired until the missing pin is investigated/replaced.

No stock lug, though I don’t know if the frame was made that way or if it was ground off.

it would be the serial number that would 'help' - but without other signs of proof and acceptance it makes it very hard.

I would say 1920's to 1930

Is the serial not 9987?

yes, I did not look at these pictures

It looks like with an 'r' suffix - that is likely a post war, almost 1930 date - if it was a WW1 that was rebuilt by either DWM or other company, then it could be lots of years.

HOWEVER - since it is missing the stock lug, then it CAN'T be a 1908 frame, as an r is too late, they were less than a 'c' suffix. So, take pictures of the back of the frame, near the bottom. And it probably was removed - but lets see 2-3 pictures, straight back, slightly under, ect.

So as it stands, a late alphabet commercial with a barrel replacement and likely reblued?

"and with the stock lug removed."

I think the suffix may be a "p", as the P and R are tough to distinguish- but either leads to the same conclusions- a 1920 alphabet commercial that has been "modified/re-worked/re-blued/re-barreled".

Weren't there US dealers selling re-barreled Lugers of various lengths by catalog in the USA in this time frame?

Yes.
I see nothing about this particular luger to indicate when it was re-barreled- only that it was.

Thanks guys!! I will try to take it down and get more pictures of the parts. But I was looking around and came by this when looking into why this gun might have had its barrel replaced. Any idea of this is true?

"1920 Commercial Lugers were mostly World War One 9mm Lugers, rebarreled to 7.65x21 so they could be resold under the Treaty of Versailles' harsh limits on German production of guns in military calibers."

Also does anyone know where I can purchase a toggle axel pin? And I am pretty sure its 7.65x21. I did the pencil test on the luger and a 9mm and the luger is for sure not a 9mm.

Take with a large GRAIN of salt the 'rebuild' - Treaty of Versailles' and WW1 guns all rebarreled / rebuilds comments you see on the web. They are all true and not true. It simply depends - lots of lugers were rebuilt and sold on the market. Also true that DWM got into trouble for making 9mm - so they made 7.65mm.

This website has an excellent FAQ that Marc Erikson improved upon greatly and keeps up, besides hundreds of 'stickies'. And the search.

You can get a rear toggle pin from Lugerdoc.

whoa - it might be missing the rear toggle retainer pin, but its NOT the rear toggle pin.

David was talking about this....

The pin Ed so eloquently "points" out is fairly easily made if you have any kind of old drill bits. It is a retainer pin that must fit fairly snugly but not "driven" in. Depends on your level of skill with gun smithing/mechanical aptitude..

Jerry is The leather guy, but I disagree- the missing pin is indeed "driven" in- or else it will fallout- perhaps as the missing one did. But then one man's "snug" is another man's "driven" in. ;)

It is,however, "removable" to allow removal of the larger axle pin.

I find a common #17 size wire nail or brad can be cut and the ends squared with a file to make this very short pin. If it is a little loose in fit, just tap it with a taper punch to upset it into the hole a little. The pin only extends about 1/16" over the flanged end of the larger pin, any longer and it will keep the toggle for closing.

Well I am in luck. I am a metal worker and have a metal working shop in my garage. I bet I can get a pin made with your guys help. But I took more of the pictures people suggested I take to help finding out what this gun is.
http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3774
http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3773
http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3772
http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3771
http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3770
http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3779
http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3778
http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3777
http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3776
http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3775

That is good on the pin.

Nothing in these pictures helps, it quite likely simply a reworked alphabet commercial luger, dating to the 1920's. The usual proof mark on the left side of the chamber seems to be missing(need a good close up of this area), I cannot see it in the one angle view showing the area. This could have been removed during a re-finish if indeed missing.

The barrel was changed, somewhere, some time- with care- by someone who took the care to number the barrel and receiver. Why we won't and can't know.

To be certain the frame is consistent with the 1920 production, pictures of:

The inside of the frame from above showing the area in the well that the take down lever goes through, and the inside rear, between the "ears", from the front toward the rear will help.
Also a picture with the grips removed, and of the rear grip frame from the back.

Don is likely more right than I am. It is actually very difficult to "drive" in a pin this small. Yes, it must be fairly tight so as not to fly out but a matter of semantics. A lot of small pins on Luger pistols are push in push out. " I am a metal worker and have a metal working shop in my garage." I actually went to gunsmithing school in the early 70's. One has to be careful in any choice of words on how to explain but since you are a metal worker you know. I think my main concern is that a non metal worker did not go about trying to Drive in an oversized mashed up pin!

I am not seeing any proofs inside the chamber. It does not mean they are not there though......

http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3783
http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3784
http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3782
http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3781
http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3780
http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3786
http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3785

Sometimes this pin is not visible with an angled pic, whereas the pin is there, its end submerged beyond flush with the toggle's surface. With the action held open, you'd be able to spot the tail of the pin if it's there--sticking down enough to retain the axle pin-- through the hole in the center of the left knob. Looking down into the top hole, it should also be visible if extant. The latter way is the fastest, but the presence of a pin alone doesn't necessarily confirm that it's doing its job down below. Without the retaining pin, one can push the axle our easily. If the axle is mobile along its axis, the pin is indeed broken or completely missing.

Yeah the pin is for certain just not in there. I can see all the way through the hole and the axle pin just slides out. I did the nail trick. It goes in and out pretty easy. I did not do anything that would have damaged the hole. But I would still like to find the correct pin.

The incremental differences in diameters of wire gauge drill bits can come in handy. A piece of a bit's shank is handy for replacing this sort of pin with virtually an exact match. Then just replace the single bit used from the set.

The proof marks are on the outside of the chamber, on the left flat in the case of the commercial pistols, and the right for military.

The "N" in the well indicates a DWM frame, and the rear picture shows a later frame, post 1914 or so. The lug has been removed by grinding or similar method and is "flatter" than a frame that never had a lug.

The serial number on the front is likely original and confirms a mid to late 1920 commercial mfg luger.

JMHO.

The small retaining pin:
PM "lugerdoc" on this board, he may have an original pin- but there is nothing magic about it- any pin that is a "snug" or "easy drive" fit is fine.
Just use a larger diameter nail, or turn a pin. ;)

Ok I think I found the proof marks on the barrel. Kinda hard to see with the naked eye but zoomed in with the camera they are there. Also not sure if anyone mentioned why the barrel and the slide are marked with one set of numbers and the other stuff is something else?

http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3787

That is the receiver, not the barrel; the marks are workers marks.
The receiver is a DWM receiver.

The barrel and receiver were likely numbered at the time they were "mated", it is not factory work- but happened at the time of barrel replacement.

You are very right. I was getting confused where the barrel ends and the receiver starts. But I cannot see any markings on the barrel besides the "295" that is very easy to see. But I appreciate the help. If I remember 1920 DWM Commercial that will be good.

This Luger, and its numbered but unrelated barrel, reminds me of a Commercial I had some years ago. I'll let the pictures speak for themselves:

http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Kyr...20Luger?sort=9

Kyrie did you ever find out why our barrels are like this? Assuming the same thing happened to yours that happened to mine.......

Besides the Treaty of Versailles theory which is apparently suspect I have not seen any other reason.

From the looks of one of your photo's it appears to me the stock lug has been ground off. 3rd photo in post #22.

Yeah the lug is for sure not there. I read some never came with them and some were ground off. From what people have said here due to how flat the back of mine is it was probably ground off. They did a decent job of making it look like it never had one at least.

Yes sir, that was so. Especially noted for long barreled (up to 24 inches) Lugers was PAC (Pacific Arms Company).

The numbers are really not a mystery or of special interest, they were put there by the guy/shop/rebuilder that re-barreled your luger.

"He" did it to ID the pieces for re-assembly; quite likely the barrel was fitted, chambered and head spaced and then removed so just the barrel could be blued, then re-installed.

The barrel shows a "better" finish with less wear, loo at the bottom where you took the picture- you can see the nice blue on the barrel and less blue on the receiver.

Interesting. Any idea why it would need a new barrel? Shot out or rusted maybe? They did not often change these from 9mm to .30 did they? And I have a toggle retaining pin on the way and ordered a couple boxes of ammo. I could not find any rounds locally sad to say.

--- snip ---

No sir, and I frankly doubt we ever will. Purely in my opinion...

The 1920s were a chaotic time in Germany. The German economy was trashed and largely non-functional. Hyper-inflation made German currency valueless within days of issue. The naval blockade of Germany by the allies continued into the late 1920s. Something like two-fifths of the children born in Germany in the early 1920s would die from starvation or disease related to malnutrition before the late 1920s. Entire cities revolted against what passed for the central government and declared themselves communist, and these revolts were bloodily suppressed (frequently by para-military forces armed with heavy weapons left over from the Great War).

This was the environment from within which our two Lugers emerged. DWM and God alone knows how many gun shops (large and small) refurbished Great War Lugers for export, mostly to the United States. Laws, including proof laws, were obeyed or ignored according to individual sense of necessity.

This produced a large number of Lugers that old time collectors (like yours truly) lumped together under the rubric “1920 Commercial.” Jan Still originated a new system of nomenclature that provided context for some of the “1920 Commercial” Lugers (e.g. Alphabet DWM, etc.) and Still’s nomenclature has come into general use among very many present day collectors.

But Still’s nomenclature leaves an indigestible lump of Luger variations for which we still lack explanation or context. Your Luger and the one of which I just shared photos are a part of that indigestible lump. Everybody has at least one opinion about each gun, but historical records that would support those opinions are absent.

These are just mystery guns, created by someone, for some reason, in some country. Here is another one:

http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Kyr...mercial?sort=9

This one started out as a 9 mm DWM military Luger, chamber date 1917. It now has a ten inch barrel and is chambered for the 7.65 Parabellum cartridge. Barrel is not proofed, marked only with the number “124.” That number matches the last three digits of the Luger on which it is installed, but is not of the military or commercial placement or form.

I still refer to such Lugers as 1920 Commercial variants. That practice has been known to anger some of the younger Luger collectors, but so far I have not been visited by the Nomenclature Police :-)

Building on Kyrie’s last answer, the nomenclature sometimes also classifies my commercial as a “1923” commercial since it has a 5 digit SN (80395), despite it having likely been made in 1920-21 or so. Somewhere in the 85000 range they switched to the “alphabet” system (or 1920) commercials such as yours. Try making sense of that...
Me personally, I call the ones like mine “1920 commercials” and the ones like yours “alphabet” commercials for clarity.

Toggle Pin Retainer Hole Dimensions
 

As you can see in the blueprint extract below, the size of the hole for the toggle retainer pin is 1.5MM (-0.05mm tolerance). The length of the pin is described at 7.2mm. The pin is not tapered.

The full set of Luger blueprints is available from me. ($25.00) in very clear digital image formats.
PM me if you are interested.