1914 Erfurt L P08 low serial
 

Hello all I recently acquired a very low serial number 1914 Erfurt Artillery Luger and was wondering what the lowest serial numbers recorded are?

This is number 130

Please let me know your thoughts

Any suffix?
dju

No suffix just Serial 130

I doubt that you will get a different answer on here than the one given you on the Jan Still forum.

Mine is 6441

but I doubt a lower serial number matters to most folks, maybe 1, or 10 or 100 or 1000 - something fun

Ed

I Haven’t gotten an answer on jans forum hence why I’m trying here...

Ed,
Absolutely just was curious what’s documented as I can’t get to my books right now since I’m in the middle of a move... Thanks for all your help

Actually you did, and I was chastised for answering it! :p

Lowest observed number in Still's Imperial Luger book is 63.

Really what definitive answer was that?

I’m
Going to vent now it amazes me how people can be chastized for asking questions and giving answers. While I understand the frustration that some may have with individuals not doing their own research or having the means to do so, it still boggles my mind.

If we as a collector community chastise or flame new collectors when they ask questions or do not offer guidance what happens to our beloved hobby? It will disappear over time.

Just my 2 cents not that it matters but I had to say it.

Calm down Patrick, no one is chastising or flaming you on either forum. As far as I know no one so far has maintained a data base of Erfurt Artilleries since Jan Still did just that back in 1991. If you're that interested start one yourself, it's a lot of work, I should know. I've been keeping a data base on Navy Lugers for almost 10 years now and probably have many hundreds of hours invested in it.
Norm
P.S. If you need some help getting started, let me know.

Thanks, the chastise comment was in reference to DonVoight, mentioned being chastised.

I think it’s a great idea to start keeping a DB, and that sounds like an endeavor I would begin. I just need to get my bearings first, since I have always collected WW2 Lugers, and the occasional PPK bank gun. Pre war is all new to me :)

Thanks for your help in advance.

"Really what definitive answer was that?"

Where the info was found and that #63 was the earliest number reported in Still's book.

Never said it was "definitive"; there have been books with hundreds of pages written about lugers and much is still and likely never will be "definitive"; but you can be sure it will be my last contribution to this and the other thread.

Thank you for all your help, I believed their was still room in your answer but I see I was mistaken. I appreciate everything you have said and I’m sorry if you took heat for helping me.

Maybe this LP08 Erfurt #3 (match), will help
B Regds, John

Thank you!!

I will post pics of mine this evening


Beautiful!

Wow John, that is one superb gun! Thanks for posting the photos.
Norm

Very, very nice!!

John, that's one hell of an Erfurt. Thanks for posting the photos.

Just plain WOW John, that is the cats meow...... Thanks for showing it to us. John

I assume that it is just me, but is the barrel bent or is that a wide angle lens thing?
dju

In the beginning the Imperial Armory at Erfurt was without form and darkness was upon the manufacturing floor.

And the spirit of Lugers moved upon the tooling and the gauges and the armorers said "Let there be metal chips" and there were drills and mills and the armorers saw that it was good.

And the armorers separated the dimensions of metal, the fit from the unfit, and the gauges were applied and considered.

And the inspectors created the hardest and sharpest of dies and said, let the metal of quality be separated from that of dross and let the separate dies be applied: the dark of the Crown/RC and the light of acceptance dies.

And the armorers made the assembly fixtures and guided the metal parts into perfect fitment and dimensional bliss.

Lo, the assembly of the frame and the receiver and the toggle train was complete, and the work of the inspectors was completed and the whole came forth from the separate parts and the armorers saw that it was good.

Then in a final test of power, the proof loads were inserted and fired in succession ensuring the safety of all that encountered the Luger.

And the assembly of the first day was given up to the museum and lost, and the assembly of the second day was given up to the government and lost.

And on the third day was John's Erfurt #3 pistol, and the Luger was of great form, and the Crown Die was without flaw. and the finish was without blemish and then number and inspection dies were applied crisply in every place they were required.

And on the last day the armorers rested and saw that it was very good...

Here are pics of the one I mentioned, not quite nearly as nice as what was shown earlier

Patrick,

If you look closely at your third and fourth pictures you'll see that there is a groove where the frame's serial number is normally placed.

Compare this to the flat and square appearance of this surface on the ser no. 3 pistol.

It's unusual. Is that seen on other Erfurts of this period?

[QUOTE=mrerick;321753]Patrick,

If you look closely at your third and fourth pictures you'll see that there is a groove where the frame's serial number is normally placed.

Compare this to the flat and square appearance of this surface on the ser no. 3 pistol.

It's unusual. Is that seen on other Erfurts of this period?[
NO/QUOTE]

I believe the front of the frame was "faced off" and a new number applied to create a "forced" match. The "130" is offset, and that is also not "normal". JMHO.

[QUOTE=DonVoigt;321754]
Interesting I wonder if this was done at the factory? Reworked maybe after the war? This came from a descendant of the vet who brought it back.

I will post clearer pictures of the frame Serial this evening. Are their any other areas I should focus on?

[QUOTE=patsy57;321755]In addition to the concerns already noted, I notice the gun is "Germany" marked on the rear of the frame. IIRC, this was applied post-WWI for guns destined for export to the US. I have a 1915 DWM that's also marked "Germany", albeit in a different location.) I'm no RKI by any stretch of the imagination, but in light of the "Germany" marking I'd be suspect of the story that the gun was captured.

[QUOTE=Bill_in_VA;321756]
This is very interesting... this is the stuff That perplexes me.

Question are their any examples of the stamps on this gun being on other examples marked Germany from 1914?

there are lots of examples of WW1 made and used lugers (and other items) that are germany stamped - however, the germany marking although used prior to the war, is almost assuredly post war, as lots of guns were fixed by DWM and other shops for export and cash during their depression, which started just after the war - however, Erfurt was forced to quit making or refurbishing after the war by the allied commission and they did not make ANY commercial arms during the war.

Attached are more pics.

Was this factory reworked?

Final pics.....

The Germany is almost certainly a post war marking; as Ed says- Erfurt made no lugers before 1910 or dated after 1918- so it was marked for export post WWI. The Germany stamping also indicates at least the frame was not "captured",
though:
I could make up a story, that could be true, that the original frame was de-lugged in the US sometime after import, and the pistol subsequently "restored" by renumbering another Erfurt frame. The only number on the frame is on the front.

No question in my mind that the frame was altered and re-numbered.
Somewhere along the line the lanyard loop was removed also.

I tried to show all markings on the lower receiver as well as the circles which I haven’t seen before in pic 2, I presume lanyard loop

Seems it could have been reworked

Correct, the 2 circles below and on each side of "Germany" are the remnants of the lanyard loop. No legal reason to remove it.
dju

Are we thinking these things were done when exported or after?

I’m in the process of acquiring this piece and want to ensure I pay the right price for it.

It seems everything is stamped all over In regards to proofs etc.. but since I don’t have books I can’t be sure.

That being said the frame has letter stamps on it which are Interesting, pics above..

"Erfurt made no lugers before 1914 or dated after 1918". Might want to walk that one back Don, My slick backed 1912 and 1913 beg to differ. Chamber dates of 1910-1914 and 1916-1918 (no 1915 Erfurts) are accepted as genuine. As a government arsenal it never made commercial P08s. "Germany" marked Erfurts were military production offered for commercial sale post war.

Why anyone would cut off the lanyard loop is beyond me, so whether it was done in Europe or in the USA is anyone's guess.
There have been enough questions raised that personally I would proceed very cautiously. What are you planning to spend?
dju

Of course you are correct.
I was thinking Erfurt Artillery for the 1914 date, which is the only year Erfurt made the artillery.

I'll fix my post.

I was planning on purchasing it, especially since it’s an artillery luger.

Not sure on price now though.. thoughts?

This is an artillery Luger

I would pass, due to the monkey business with the numbers on the front of the frame and only fair condition; unless it is priced as a shooter. JMHO.