Inherited 1918 Erfurt with police holster and two mags
 

This luger was brought back to the states by my husband's late father-in-law around 1946 (As family lore goes). I knew absolutely nothing about guns, let alone Lugers, until I found my way here. I have to admit I'm hooked!
I have read and searched these forums, and the more I learn, the less qualifiedI feel to even post a question. I am humbled by the level of expertise represented here and will try not to waste your time.
I am confused by the double striking or mistriking of the 90 on a two places on the gun. Pictures below. It almost looks like they stamped 89 and then stamped 90 over it. Makes me very skeptical. We know it's been in a safe for the last 70 years, but before that is anyone's guess.
I've been told the vertical strap on the holster means it's a police holster, but I'm confconfusedby the unit marking P.A.L.II.409.
One magazine has a matching serial number, the other does not.
There are numerous markings, even on the grip screws.
Any input would be much appreciated.
I am still working on my photo skills but would be glad to provide more photos.
Thank you in advance for your time.
Sincerely,
Diane

Hi and welcome to the luger forum.
You have a late Imperial dated 1918 Erfurt made luger, taken into police service during the Weimar Republic era.
It has an added safety above the sear bar, which is peculiar to police luger pistols and was added about 1932-3. The luger may have been "reworked" at that time and the part that is overstamped renumbered to match when replaced- no way to know for sure- but any needed replacements were commonly re-numbered.

The marking is that of the PolizeiAmt Leipzig, The Roman II is a sub area, and 409 is the weapon number in the police system of Leipzig. This info from the great book by member Don Maus,
History Writ in Steel, pp220-221.

Your holster is also the police pattern, with the "up" strap and no buckle. The one matching magazine is a nice extra, and has the police acceptance of eagle/L - which dates to Third Reich times.

This luger no doubt served through the Weimar era and through WWII.

Good pictures, but a little more light would help, a grey or other darker than white background will help get better exposure..
The holster may have markings on the back and/or inside the top flap, if marked , please show more pictures.

Check out the stickys with a lot of info in the new collector area.

Thank you for the quick reply!
The holster has a marking on the back between the belt loops.
I'm also posting a pic of the other restamping.
It's amazing how much information can be learned from a 100 year old gun.

Hopefully this works.

Hi Diane,
That is the makers mark of Akah, a manufacturer of sporting gear still in business today. Your holster was a Commercial before it saw Police service.
Norm

The number 1190 MAY be on the back of the tool or someplace on the holster. If you are skilled enough to take the pistol apart there are many more markings to be seen inside.


Many of these pistols were re furbished by Mauser..It is discovered by seeing if the rear toggle pin is numbered or if the firing pin is fluted. Neither of these were on the original pistol.

Here are a few more photos. There was only one mark and no number under the left grip. The right grip has a mark and the number 90.
There are marks on almost every piece and plain.
I included a pic of the other magazine marking.
I also included another photo of the serial number and the marking underneath it. What is under the eagle? I haven't seen another like it but I haven't gotten my hands on any books yet.
I understand how guns were turned in and double dated and reissued, but this only has the one date of 1918. Does that mean it was originally issued to the police? Or was it manufactured and sat unused until the sear safety was added and then went to the police?
I also find it odd that all the other 90's are so clearly marked.

It started it's career as an Imperial Army weapon at the tail end of the Great War.

Jerry, there are no numbers or marks on either side of the tool, but II did find a penciled number 1778 on the underside of the holster flap. Could that be the original holster number? We're they written in pencil? Do you think any of our scribbling will be so cherished 100 years from now?
We have not checked out the firing pin yet.
Thank you all for your time!

The presence of only two acceptance/proof marks on the receiver indicate it was a "spare" receiver and perhaps not used or assembled until after the 1920 marking (which lasted only about a year from 1920-21, though only 1920 was the property marking applied).

The "Su25" seen on the bottom of the barrel, also indicates a replacement barrel, assembled/used when built/rebuilt at the Spandau arsenal ca. the late 1920's.

The numbered right grip is likely the original grip, the left grip was often replaced - especially if the pistol received the magazine safety during "upgrades" in the 1930's. The mag safety was later removed or inactivated as they caused function problems, but the grip which was cut specifically for the mag safety was often retained, or replaced with another grip at the time.

A picture of the upper grip area with the left grip off would help, as would a picture of the inside of the left grip in total or just the upper half.

The spare mag is the #2 mag from another police luger.

Don't worry too much about the over strikes, they may simply indicate use of a previously numbered part during the extensive rebuilt that this pistol received; it was likely refinished during the 1930s update, and appears to be original to work done in that period.

I'm not sure what you mean by "squibbling" and 100 years, but it has been 100 years since this piece was first made, so maybe that answers the question- in the future- who knows. :)

OBXmom, welcome to the forum. You did a great job of providing info on your Luger and got some great responses from many of the experts here. You have a very nice, fascinating police Luger. I hope you keep and cherish this wonderful heirloom.

If you decide to sell it, you can do so here, as I am sure you will get several good offers. You can expect help here in determining a fair market value. But, I hope you don't sell it.

Thank you. The amount of information on these pages is astounding.
Would this luger be considered a shooter, or a collector piece? We have no intentions of selling at this time, but it's always good to have an idea of worth. Right now we are enjoying the daily discoveries about this piece. We still need to get a look inside, but I figured it would be better to do some research first so we don't unintentionally damage anything valuable.
We're very grateful for everyone's input.

Diane, George Luger was a genius like Col. Colt & John Browning. Luger"s will literally fall apart if you discover their little nuances. People are confused and mystified by what seems very complex but isn't . Look on You Tube for directions on taking apart a Luger pistol.


Diane, 1778 is likely a pistol serial yes. Not done in the usual Police serial number manner but not much other reason to see such a 4 digit number. Usually the German Police stamped serial numbers in the back right corner or along the front body leading edge of the holster. This being a commercial AKAH holster..anything is possible.



The tool looks original. Might just be the original commercial tool.

Based on Don’s comments, it should seem that this pistol would be classified as a collectible piece since all the work/rework/refinishing was done in Germany before it was brought back by your family. In fact it looks very aesthetically pleasing and in good condition.

I would expect to pay $1500 to $2000 for a luger of this type with one matching mag, and a holster/tool.
The big online retailers would try to sell it for more, like $2500 =/-.

Police lugers are not the most popular versions of this classic pistol; but they do seem to be gaining a little more respect(and pricing) these days. :)

Having a commercial holster is a bit odd, as most police "rigs" have government contractor marked issue holsters.
I'm not convinced the hand written number inside is a "police" number- but it makes little or no difference to the value or desirability of your rig; if it were the same number as the pistol it would be an enhancement. JMHO.

Holy cow! We had no idea. Might take me a while to work up the nerve to take it apart now.
The responses are amazing. Thank you for your time and willingness to share your expertise.

Wow!!! This doesn't happen often. I have recorded in HWIS Table 14-4 a wood-base mag stamped 490, PALII , 1190, 2 (vertical orientation). These almost certainly indicate the inventory number, police headquarters, gun serial number and spare magazine. Note the difference in inventory numbers. Fortunately, I have also included a photo of this base in HWIS on p. 222 and can see how I misread this number. It is actually 409. This is the original spare magazine for your gun!!!!! How it got into this other gun is a mystery.

Don,
That is a crazy coincidence! Thank you so much for sharing the photo! I am gob smacked!
Diane

This is the original spare magazine for your gun!!!!! How it got into this other gun is a mystery. So another mystery..where is it?

Something to consider - although Mauser might have refurbished guns after WW1 - before that was DWM and later the police armory in Berlin was capable of doing just about anything, from what I understand.

Nice Erfurt - parts made by Erfurt, left over parts were either put together by police armorers or DWM (even some small gun smith shops were doing this) during the Weimar period, but it went into police service and likely served into WW2.

Ed

Working on it.

Ok, we disassembled the piece today, and I'm relieved to say the reassembly went well also.
Jerry,
You mentioned the rear toggle pin and a fluted firing pin. As seen below, the rear toggle pin is marked with a 90. The firing pin has a few markings and are the the cuts in it what you refer to as fluting?

Jerry,
you also asked about a pic of the inside left grip, and piece without the grip.

There were marking everywhere inside. Here are a few more photos.

I do believe that when they are asking about the grip straps they are asking to look at the parts of the gun as shown in my pictures attached here.

O:
The deep cuts near the top of the firing pin in the photo are what we refer to as fluting. I believe that this was a later addition to Lugers so in the event of a pierced primer the sudden infusion of hot gasses would have an escape path to bleed off thru rather than forcing the entire firing pin toward the rear.
Certainly a well-marked gun and you have done a good job on the photos.
dju

Diane, Excellent job! The fluted firing pin David mentions and the numbered rear toggle pin are indicators of the pistol being re worked by Mauser. The pistol was not equipped with these features when it was originally made.

The bore is excellent! Shows very little use.

The interior rails being in the white is an indication that the pistol has it's original bluing.

Nicely done..
Did Don ever contact you about the wood bottom magazine with your serial number? Does he know where it might be?

Good follow up Girl! Fell apart like I said didn't it? There is a slight trick putting it back together..

Thank you Jerry!
Don did help me with some contact info. The first email address came back undeliverable (I was crushed!). Don had another email address, so I resent but we haven't had a response yet. I'll definitely post an update if I hear from him.
The wooden based mags are what would have been made for the piece back in 1918, right? When would the aluminum ones have been added, when it went into police service? But that wooden base has the police unit marking, so I'm confused. Do you ever find a piece that has matching wood and aluminum mags?
Anything unusual or special I also about any of the other markings?
Thank you for being patient with all my questions!
Diane

If the wood based mag was servicable, it would have add the markings added upon entering police service, the aluminum base dates to around 1930, and may have been added at the time of the addition of the sear safety.

Thanks for the picture of the left side, but the area of the frame at the top of the grip is too dark to see much. I'm looking for about a 5/16" hole above the trigger but under the side plate, where part of the magazine safety would have intruded into the mag well.

In the first picture, you can see the hole, but the mag safety is removed; the other three(a different pistol) show the magazine safety in place and with the grip in place also.

The mag safety did not work really well, and they were ordered removed or incapacitated in 1936-7. An intact safety is rare, some were removed completely, some only partially.

Whew, I think this is the shot you're looking for?

This just not correct and is one of those myths that keeps on giving because it sounds logical: but, there is nowhere for the "gas" to escape from the fluting to.
If one just looks at the relation of the grooves/flutes to any possible escape point, one sees that they do not reach any.

The grooves are there to allow any dirt/powder/oil debris a place to live without rendering the striker immobile.
If anything, the grooves add more area for the gas pressure to push against, and we know that the force= area x pressure.

The Finns added an approx. 3/32" escape hole in the bottom of the breech block to address gas from a pierced primer; just at the forward most reach of the striker, the escape hole shown below. This hole allows an immediate and direct escape for excess gas, but not without the potential of damaging the magazine, and grips- which is the next area the gas escapes to if vented from the hole shown.

The fluting was added according to an Army directive in 1930 to be completed by 1931 and was practiced by armorers and repair depots; the fluting also applied to deliveries of New production(BKIW and later Mauser). The actual document is found in the three volume Goertz and Sturgess books,p. 1116. The numbering of the rear toggle pin was ordered in 1932, found on p-1120(Green edition).

Diane, yes to both your questions. The wooden based mags are what would have been made for the piece back in 1918, right? Correct. Originally this pistol came with two wood based magazines numbered to it.

Don is correct. Often these are found in Police service with both types, wood & aluminum. During the Weimar era money was tight and nothing was wasted.



Good that you have a line on your missing magazine..If you get no response you may want to publish the name of the last known owner. It could be that a Member here is familiar with the gentleman and his current contact information.

So since there is no hole, this piece never had a mag safety installed?

Exactly

As listed (with his permission) in HWIS in the caption for Fig. 14-16, the owner is/was Charles Wagner.

Well there you go. Charles is alive and well and I have had very recent communication with him. He is a good man.

I hope he still has the mag. I don't have a dog in this hunt but would sure love to see Diane's pistol and Charlie's mag reunited.

Oh my! I haven't received an answer from the email I sent, but I would really like to speak with him! Jerry, could you let him know I'm trying to reach him? I purposely didn't include any links or pics in my email so it wouldn't get sent to his junk folder, but maybe it did anyway?
This has been such a needed distraction. My son deploys very soon to the sandbox, and I handle such things much better when I'm busy. I think that's why my husband had me conduct this research. He's perfectly capable, but he is a master strategist!
So, if anyone out there knows how I can reach Mr Wagner, I would appreciate any information or assistance!
Thank you,
Diane

I forgot to mention. My email is
allaboutmykids@msn.com
Thank you!

Diane, I contacted Charles..hopefully he will respond to this thread, or you. Let me know!