New Luger Owner Possibly a "SNEAK"...
 

Hello everyone! I've always wanted a Luger but didn't want to pay the high price. Unfortunately I have never sat down and read anything about them, either. I figured they were like WW 1911's in that they were pretty easy to find dates, manufacturers and everything else. Boy I was wrong. So i went to a local auction yesterday and found this one, and won her at $700. What was confusing to me was that there were 4 or 5 other Lugers commercial and military but no one bid on this one, other than one other guy and myself. So I get home to research the old girl and to my disbelieve I think I have a "Sneak" Luger!
It doesn't have the magazine safety or the sear safety. But what from I've read it should have them. The magazine is not numbers matching. Anyway, I would love to hear your collectors thoughts on this. Was the $700 a good buying price or what is it's value? What is it's prominence? But most of all is it a "Sneak" Luger? Don't hold back! Thank You!

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Hey Kyrie, Don, et all, looks like we found another Luger purchased for under $1000! This one was even in the specified $500-$800 range.

DedHed, for one, it’s not an all matching gun. Your trigger assembly is marked differently as is your firing pin and hold open at the very least. Your pistol’s profile matches a description of a 1911 or earlier Military gun given the hidden location of the numbers on the side plate and takedown lever. That would also mean that the holdopen is not original and was added at some point either by a German armory (which doesn’t make sense given that the holdopen is not matching) or by someone who knows what they are doing with Lugers. Despite this, it does have military proofings on the right side of the gun with a matching frame, barrel, and toggle minus the firing pin. It also has a faint hint of a unit mark on the front of the frame/grip. (Speaking of which, are the grips numbered?). Your pistol has been buffed and/or reblued which took away the chamber and toggle inscriptions and relegates it to shooter status. So long as it works properly, you got an excellent deal on a shooter for only $700.

One thing I hope we can all agree on, if it functions you did very well at that price. Well done and welcome!

The stock lug dates the frame to 1913 or later. I don't see the Mauser dimple in the stock lug, so I think the frame is by DWM. I see Mauser-era proofs on the barrel and breechblock and receiver. I do not see obvious buffing or grinding anywhere, although it might be possible on the grip strap and sideplate- I just can't tell. The halos around your barrel serial teach that at least that part is in original finish. The wear and finish on the other parts seem to approximately match the barrel, so if I had to vote I'd say I think the other parts are original finish but I find it is almost always difficult to judge finish from photos.

Beyond that I am just not familiar enough with DWM/early Mauser parts or sneaks to offer additional comments. I find pistols like this fascinating and I will watch the thread with interest to see what experienced collectors say about the parts and finish.

The serial number range is what a 'sneak' should be "u" suffix.

Its mismatched. Although your close up pictures are good, you took internal shots which just show maker markings, which don't help us much :)

A sneak is a late DWM parts, so would not expect a Mauser frame.... Please see the FAQ for what a sneak is. They are not just police, they are a left over contract that was never sent out.

I've seen "sneaks" in the s,t & u suffix ranges. Most were assembled by BKIW from left over DWM parts when they went out of business in 1929. Yours appears to have Weirmar military acceptance markings. It also appears to be missing the mid toggle axle retaining pin. TH

If you want to start reading about Lugers, start with our forum FAQ document...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=13121

It's free, has much more value than it costs and included accumulated knowledge from years of forum analysis of Lugers.

BKIW was DWM. They never went out of business. After the 1929 takeover of DWM, the new owner, the Quandt Group, decided to rationalize small arms production and initiated the transfer of equipment from Berlin to Oberndorf.

The 'sneak' was a small contract for Moroccan Insergents at the Riff area. Because of the political sentiments, DWM chose to omit any maker's mark. Then the decision was made not to deliver these guns and they were sold to German police instead.

Particularly in the second pic, the receiver seems noticeably proud of the front of the grip frame. Is it just my eyes, or is this an early long receiver assembled to a short frame here?

Lots to comment on-
to the OP- you have a late DWM or BIKW pistol, in the U block, we don't call them "sneaks" but " '29 commercial" luger now. They were never "sneaks" , which I believe was another made up marketing term(JMHO), or simply a good story.

The markings on the chamber and toggle link, have not been "removed by buffing"; and are absent because they were never there! I see no evidence that it has been refinished. Of course it was made with a lug and hold open in about 1929- as it should have been.

It is marked "differently" as it is a commercial pistol that was taken into and accepted by the military. It did not start out as a military contract.

It has been "apart" , as the small pin in the toggle knob seems to be missing.

It is police marked on the front strap, or was, as the markings have been mostly removed.
Not all police lugers received a sear safety, or a magazine safety; lugers for the "barracked" police did not receive these additions. So their absence is not strange at all.

I do wish folks would be sure of their "facts" before posting authoritative sounding errors and promulgating luger misconceptions. JMHO.

I think it is an optical illusion, due to angles or shadows.
It is a short receiver.

Does it shoot?

Forgive me, I often see reblued or rebuffed guns that take away chamber and toggle marks. The partially removed police marking on front fit in with that profile too. Not like all of us have seen this type of pistol commonly or come across large amounts of literature on them.

HerrKaiser,
It is not a question of "forgiveness", but one of accuracy.

If you don't know, don't give an answer that sounds like facts carved in stone. Just qualify the answer, as "I guess, or "I think", or "it looks like".

All of us make mistakes, but if left uncorrected they only serve to confuse others regarding the nuances of lugers. No one has seen everything for sure.

I've had to go back and retract or change more than one incorrect assessment; usually because I didn't get up and check "the book".:eek:

Just remember what Davy Crockett said: " be sure you're right, and then go ahead". :thumbup:

Now I'll relinquish the :soapbox: .

http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7iu4b9b4.jpgThanks everyone! Due to the weather up here in the Rust Belt the rain won't allow me to go out back yet (to shoot). I went to a local gun show today to find the Local Luger Guy. The funny thing is, is that for as long as I have been going to shows I have seen him, but I've been to intimidated to speak to him until today. LOL. So at the auction it was labeled at 1930-1933. After a close examination by the Luger Guy it is an 1929 commercial, approximately 70% finish left, with possible military ties due to the proof mark and the scripts on the front grip strap. His well educated opinion is that it never entered police service due to the lack of the sear and mag safety. One major concern is that the toggle pin is very worn at the ridge side due to possible grinding or something of that nature. The grips are unmarked underneath. His opinion is that it is a DWM late 1929 with left over parts hence the lack of the makers mark before Mauser picked up production. The mag is a 1935 vintage. Thanks again! Ecstatic in Ohio!

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Unfortunately I’m stuck in a place where I can either afford the books on Lugers or afford my textbooks for class each semester given the prices that accompany them. I do my best to soak up and synthesize the information you all give on here. But I’m stuck with only Standard Catalog of Luger which has some pretty pictures I suppose but doesn’t seem to be all too reliable as a I quickly learned.

Is there Luger Data sheets to fill out to note numbers I can download somewhere?

Welcome to the forum, Shannan. I've heard that DVDs of the Sturgess and Gortz reference set are available separately at quite a reasonable price. I couldn't find them listed as such on the publisher's (Simpson Ltd.) site, but I'm pretty sure I remember a comment somewhere to that effect. I've sent a message to them in order to find out and will return to report the answer when I have it. Maybe someone else knows, in the meantime?

DedHed,
His "well educated opinion" is wrong, not all police lugers received the sear and mag safety, as noted in my post above. The "removed markings" show it was issued to the Schupo - can't make out where. Schupo = Schutz Polizei = "protection police". Obviously he did not know that the lugers of the barracked police did not receive these additions.

Your luger is not make up of left over/unmarked pieces- the lack of the DWM roll mark was explained above as part of the not delivered "Riff contract".

Lugers destined for the Police in this time frame were accepted by the military, hence the markings on the right side. There has been much discussion as to whether or not these lugers were first made in 7,65mm and then the barrels changed to 9mm- you can find the thread with this discussion by searching or maybe someone will post a link.

Yes, it looks like you should replace the toggle pin before shooting- as it could cause a problem.
Lugerdoc on this forum will have a replacement.

Herr Kaiser,
The cd mentioned is available from Simpson's or was- you have to call and ask for it as it is not "advertised" and was than $40 when I bought one.
Maybe you can put it on your Christmas list? :)

http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...pscqfd9cgo.jpgThanks for the help! There is so much info to piece together on these pieces it's crazy. I have searched and read so much the past two days its hard to piece it all together. But after your explanation its starting to come together. It has been and will be a great journey. One question though what is the character to the right of W2A66? Thanks

It is an eagle over and H, a military proof used for a limited time in the late 1920's to early '30s.

This vintage luger is notorious for poorly struck acceptance and proof markings, yours are better than most.

Orders were given in 1937 to cease unit marking of police lugers; though not required some markings were "canceled", and example is below. Your markings may have been removed in the period, or at any time later; but are clearly police markings of a Schupo post.
You can see one below marked to the Landjaegeri (rural police) that was not touched.

Here is the same markings only tougher to make out! Both are 'u" suffix pistols.

Don't feel bad about "grasping" the details, it takes a while and not a little study. I like police lugers and have read all I could find about them and their first owners. Currently is have 35 DWM and Erfurt police lugers, along with a couple police marked M1896 Mausers and small "pocket" 7,65mm autos.:evilgrin:

H.Kaiser et al, As you can see above, not all luger collectors &/or references agree. Since the early 1970s when the first luger reference books were published (I still recommend Kenyon's "Lugers at Random" @ around $50 or available at many public libraries, as a good place to start) many newer luger references have been published, with additional information. TH

Tom is correct, in fact we can't agree on what book to start with.
Though the first luger books were way better than no references, they just did not get it all correct- which of course is to be expected- as we still learn every month, if not every day.

Lugers at Random was published in 1969 and while does have some good, basic info; it is also full of errors ; I would not waste my money on it today(I have owned my copy for decades). The problem is you don't know what is correct and what is erroneous! JMHO.

Kenyon identifies your DWM/BKIW produced U suffix luger as an "unmarked Simson rework", which it is not.

If you diligently search this forum and the other luger forum, you will have more, and better info- plus the opportunity to ask questions of many of the guys who actually wrote the later luger reference books.

Searching and reading for yourself is a requirement, as when one starts into any new area- we don't even know what questions to ask.

Don't trust much what is found online and in Wikipedia!

I agree the pistol was originally manufactured in 1927-8 for the Rif Contract, undelivered to them, and subsequently issued to the Schutzpolizei in about 1929. The lack of a sear or mag safety indicates it was issued to a barracked Bereitshaftspolizei unit that was subsequently transferred to the military in 1934-5. The police property marking was probably scrubbed at that point.

As stated by others, there are a number of threads which discuss the "Rif" or "sneak" pistols. I suggest you read http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...TE-1920s/page7, especially post # 68.

Thanks for all the replies! I have more questions now. Before I bought it I have never held a Luger let alone squeezed rounds off in one. So today was the day. I put 10 rounds threw her. My question is, how heavy or LIGHT is the trigger supposed to be. There is no wall at all. I'm a 1911 guy and have felt some light triggers but nothing like this one! I feel like you could blow on the trigger and she'll let one go. What is normal for a tigger pull?

The second thing is after I shot her I cleaned her up. When I removed the grip panels, there are P,L, and G stamped under the left side in the steel, and what looks like a D under the right side top edge near the back strap. Are these the machinists marks?

Finally, the pin Don and Luger Doc are talking about I believe is still intact. It was a bad pic due to the lighting, but the pin is recessed a little. Is it right?

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Shannan,

Luger trigger pull is normally what I would call moderate and should not be THAT light. There is normally an initial light pull before the trigger engages the sear bar, then more force is required to fire the gun. Check for a weak/broken/missing trigger return spring or perhaps a worn/mis-fitted sear bar/striker, or perhaps dirt in sear bar.

Step one: completely disassemble and clean the gun. Examine the parts. Is the return spring present and intact? Is there any evidence of alterations to the sear bar or striker (file marks, peening)?

Added note: A trigger return spring is not visible in your photos and the striker is not matched to the gun.

KFS

As for your trigger question, I don’t know if there is a set answer since each gun is handfit down to the sideplate and trigger assemblies . My shooter grade Luger has easily the ugliest/worst trigger pull out of all the firearms I own, my more collectible one is not far behind it. Though I won’t ever shoot it again to preserve it. For my shooter pistol, it feels like I’m pulling the trigger against mud and still have a difficult time finding where the takeup ends and you hit the point of firing. Despite spending countless hours at home with snap caps and on the range trying to figure it out. However, on here I seem to read a lot of comments more similar to yours.

One thing that Lugers are not known for is an extremely light trigger. I would UNLOAD it and with the toggle cocked, try to make it click without pulling the trigger. Bump it, wiggle the trigger side to side, snap the toggle shut, etc.
That does not sound safe and I'd not shoot it again until it was deemed safe to fire.
dju

A trigger pull as light as you describe is not normal, and likely not really safe.
Contact surfaces may be worn, or someone may have given it a "trigger job". Either way it needs attention.

The markings on the frame are workers marks.

Your pin is there, as long as it holds the toggle pin in it is ok.

I have one Luger that did indeed have a very light trigger pull. It was so light that it would "double"/bumpfire. This made me more than a bit uncomfortable, to say the least. It appeared that "Bubba" had shortened the trigger return spring to give it a "trigger job".

I put in a new, correct trigger return spring and the problem was solved. None of my Lugers have light/match trigger pulls......actually, quite the opposite.

There has been some excellent advice on the trigger. Some things to try: study the various Luger animations and dis-assembly videos on YouTube and understand how all the parts work together. With the upper off the frame, upper can be cocked and the firing pin released by pressing on the front of the sear bar. This is helpful in isolating issues. I suggest snap caps to prevent damage to the firing pin from dry-firing. The side plate can be attached to the frame with the upper left off to allow operation/inspection of all trigger parts in the frame. Good luck, have fun and let us know what you found.

Whoever struck the W2A66 mark surely had his Wheaties (or teutonic equivalent) that morning.

New glasses are in order Karl. I can see the trigger return spring in at least two of the photos.:rolleyes:

Well I bought some 9mm snap caps. I then re-arched the trigger bar spring a little, cleaned, and lubed everything. Then double checked everything, but it is still light as all get out. I will have to order a new trigger spring and check that out. I have a decent understanding of how everything works and why. My question is though what sets your trigger pull weight? The trigger spring, the trigger lever, and/or the trigger lever pushing on the trigger bar? Or a combination of it all? If it’s a combo, what has the most to do with it in the chain of events? I have tried shaking and pounding to try to get it to fire, but it’s not like a Sig and wants to release a round thankfully. Also there is no evidence of filing on the trigger bar just normal wear. Thanks Again!

A combination of course.
But the springs won't fix your problem, IMO.
You quite likely have an "engagement" issue, either angles or amount .

It will likely take a new striker and/or sear bar to get back to "normal" luger trigger weight.

If you 'fire' just the upper by pressing on the sear bar, is it still too light? If so you've isolated the issue to the firing pin/sear connection. Assuming that is the case I would carefully inspect both the firing pin and sear and probably try a different firing pin. I have at least one Luger that while matching, requires a non-matching replacement part to function correctly.

I think 4 scale means "dry fire"! Live fire would be hard to hold.:evilgrin:

The stamp is actually WaA66 for Waffen-Amt inspector 66.

Yes, thanks. I would hate to be responsible for the demise of a fellow collector;)

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Well everyone I believe I found the issue. If you look at the pics you can see the right side of the trigger pivot pin is bent slightly. I purchased another that looks like it hasn't been tampered with, or bent. Trigger pull increased significantly. I understand what everyone says that there is no clean or crisp "wall." Every pull seems to break at different points.
Thanks Again!

Thanks for posting the rest of the story. :)
Glad you found the problem.