Luger year by serial?
 

I am currently looking at a reblued DWM Luger with matching numbers that has had the last two digits of the year on top of the frame buffed off. This pistol has the "Imperial Marks" on the right side, faint "squirrel", strong "squirrel" on the left side toggle, and seems to have all the indications that it is a 1914 military model. I'm new to this, and have limited info available. The serial is 4344e. Can the year be determined? Thanks.

Serial numbers ran from "no suffix" through "z" without the "j" used, and then cycled through again.

Some of the manufacturers restarted them each year, others just kept going until they cycled from "9999z" or "10000z" to "1" again.

It may be possible to determine things from marks and other details. Post good photos.

See our FAQ document for more details.

Hi Tom,
One can narrow down the year of manufacture of an Imperial Luger by answering these 3 questions:
Does it have a hold-open?
Does it have a stock lug?
Does it have a relieved sear?
Regards, Norm

Just to mudd things up a bit.:D

Most that didn't have originaly the hold-open had it added. But it can be spotted that it was done.

Some sears had the relief cut later on in the field. It can be spotted too.

Edit. And we can rule out before 1910. Chambers weren't dated until then.

Your'e assuming a mixed parts gun. DWM ran all the numbers, it was Erfurt that started numbers each year.

Added a pic., and more to the description. Yes, it has a hold open. Yes on the stock lug. Not sure on the sear. Not a mixed parts gun. Thanks.

Hi Tom,
Well, that’s progress, we now know that your gun dates from late 1913 to late 1918. A clear photo of the left side would narrow it down further.
Norm

Any particular place on the left side? I didn't see any markings other than the serial.

Here you go Tom. The first photo shows an unrelieved sear (on a 1913 DWM), the second a relieved sear (on a 1916).
Norm

This one is the relieved version

Well now you know it dates from very late 1916 (Nov, Dec), to very late 1918 (11AM, Nov 11th).
Norm

Hey Norm,

Thanks for your help. Is there any way to narrow it down any more short of using some kind of process to recover the lost numbers?

Tom

Not exactly, DWM from 1912 started with 1"ns" , just as did Erfurt when the year changed; with military production. The years from 1908 to 1911 show some strange overlaps.
So there are some years, that did not use all the suffix letters.:eek:

DWM commercial production after the change to year dates in 1920 and 21 started over, when the year was dropped, DWM commercials ran the alphabet.

Mauser ran the alphabet to the end; before starting over.

A four digit "e" suffix likely did not appear to 1915 production.
So the OP pistol would likely date to 1915 to 1918.

At least that is what I get from studying Still"s Imperial luger book. See the chart on p15, it is much clearer than my writing.

How is that for mud! :cheers:

And please, there are no "squirrel" marks on lugers; I have no idea what you mean by that.

Hi Tom,
Yes, I could go down stairs to the gun room and look it up for you in Jan C. Stills' "Imperial Lugers" but I'm not going to. I don't want to deny you the pleasure of looking it up for yourself in the finest Luger reference work ever written. It's a little dated now and it ain't cheap, but it will transform your life as a Luger collector, at least it did mine.
Regards, Norm

Not really, the serial number with 4 digits and "e" limits it to 1915,16,17,or 18. The sear bar could have been relieved post mfg.

The degree of original external polish/finish would give a clue, but still won't get you any closer than 3 years- but this one has had all original finish polished away, so I think you will have to be happy with a 4 year window.

See posting "My first Imperial Luger-1918 DMW page 10 That's where I got it from. Must be called Spandau mark.

Uh Uh
 

Well thanks for the help you already gave. I'm not going to spend 300+ bucks on more books for another gun collecting hobby at this late date in life. I already have a fortune in books, guns, and parts in my M1 carbine sickness, I'm not gonna go down that road now with Lugers. If I buy this shooter Luger, I will be content to know the date is one of three possible years and keep my $300. Thanks again.

Perhaps you are referring to the Imperial Eagle, the final proof marking on military lugers? DWM pistols were inspected by representatives from Spandau ; Erfurt inspectors had their own slightly different proof eagle.

It is the marking nearest the barrel on the right side of the chamber and also present on other pressure bearing parts.
Early DWM military lugers had the proofing on the left side:cheers:

The pictures below show a DWM pistol and a 1911 Erturt; you can see the Erfurt eagle better on the barrel in this shot, and on the right side.

There is more info on these markings in the stickies.

The OP's Luger is either a 1917 or 1918 DWM. The underlined Crown/T acceptance stamp is unique to those two years.

Bingo!

Thanks gentlemen, I very much appreciate the help I have received from several folks on this forum. In repayment I would offer, that if anyone needs help on an M1 carbine question I will be happy to help, I do have a very good understanding gleaned over 20 yrs of research, and the reading of a lot of carbine books. I must say that none of them cost a ridiculous 300 bucks. That price is a real detriment to the new Luger collectors. But fortunately the nice guys on this site made up the "FAQ" posting and that takes care of a lot of questions a "newby" will ask. Thanks again.

Update: I think I'm going to stop collecting Lugers, sell the ones I have and buy gun books. It seems to me that all the firearms books are the real collectibles, and will appreciate in value way faster than the lowly guns do. In terms of cash value the books are the way to go, forget the guns.

Hi Tom,
Buying any Luger without buying a reference book first can lead to an expensive mistake, I should know, I’ve been hurt more than once. Now I buy every Luger book I can lay my hands on, including those written in German, French and Italian. My copy of “Imperial Lugers” cost me about $60.00 back in 1995 (a lot of money back then), but it’s saved me many times that amount.
Norm

I don't doubt the value of the books, just the absolute ridiculous prices. The books appreciate in price more than the guns. That's the real baloney, and it will keep me from going any further in Lugers on my own. JMHO

When in doubt, ignorance is always a shield.

If you had written and published a low volume, speciality book you would understand the price.:eek:

The market determines the price of used books, i.e. supply and demand. :cheers:

No further in lugers? Oh my!:(
Less competition for the rest of us.:evilgrin:

Mr. Voigt:

1. You might be right.

2. Book Companies need to print, and reprint more copies and stop turning every gun book into a rarity.

3. Believe me, I'm a total novice and no competition to any of you serious Luger guys.


Mr. Anderson:

My ignorance is the very reason I ask questions of those experts on this forum, and I very much appreciate the generous help given.


Again I say, Thank You Gentlemen.