Round not consistently extracting
 

Hi all,

I have a non matching #'s P08 that's having some issues. Initially the toggle wasn't moving forward all the way and the gun wouldn't go into battery. I ordered some springs from Wolff and replaced the main spring, ejector spring and firing pin spring. I went to the range, now it goes into battery every time. About halfway through that range trip I kept getting stove pipes, looked closer and realized my ejector broke. I ordered a new one and replaced it and went back to the range. Now everything is perfect... About 70% of the time. I keep getting jams, every time it happens the shell is still in the barrel. When I try to clear it I eject the magazine and function the toggle and the stuck round comes out no problem. The extractor looks ok to me and it works the majority of the time, any thoughts? Thanks in advance!

PS, also, the toggle is no longer locking open all the time, that's the first time I've had that issue, now sure if it's related.

What ammo are you using? Did you replace the extractor spring? A picture of the extractor tip might help as well.

On your toggle not locking back, you might try a different mag. Mec Gars are the recommended aftermarket brand. Sometimes on some pistols a stronger mag spring can improve hold open function; forum member GT has installed those for me in the past. That you replaced the mainspring and now it's not holding open may indicate the mainspring is a bit too strong, not uncommon if you are using 115gr. target ammo. IMO when replacing mainsprings or when the HO function is not always working, a tape test should be done (search the forums and you'll find how to do it).

I'd suspect 2 separate issues. Either the extractor is dirty, worn or broken , or the spring is weak, OR it doesn't like that brand of ammo.
One thing at a time.
dju

Thank you for the replies. I'm using 115 GR Winchester White Box, 9mm. I did replace the extractor spring, I held on to the old one and may test putting it back in.

However, I found an issue I missed before, the ejector I changed out was not an original part and I noticed after my first post that the slide was feeling very notchy. It turns out that the ejector was too tall and was rubbing up against the frame. I filed the ejector down and now the slide moves smoothly. Could this have caused my issue?

Justin, since you didn't mention hinky extraction as an issue to begin with, I'd put the original extractor spring back into it. I'm sure you cleaned out its well and gave it a drop of oil when changing before...

I recall a thread here not to long ago discussing an ejector that was misbehaving, and IIRC, the final solution was to dress the front edge of the ejector's tab. Apparently, if the edge is angled back when the action is rearmost, the edge will hit the shell on the lower right instead of the bottom the rim. Straight up ejection is unimpeded, as designed. Ejection angled off to the left side, not so much. In the case of that other gun, I think it was denting cases. But I'd say that any situation that misdirects or impedes the ejecting shell's travel can also mess up ejection.

Since the ejector is a replacement, it's worth a look.

I have never dealt with this particular issue but from my understanding of Lugers I would say possibly. As David points out, it is important to fix and then test one element at a time.

For sure.:cheers:

You are sometimes mixing up extractor and ejector, and it gets confusing; I'm assuming you mean extractor.
The ejector is the long spring in the side of the receiver extension, and does not have a "spring" it is its own spring.

I wondered if it was only me that was getting confused about this thread's terminology(It is getting much easier these days to confuse me).

OK. Let's get this thing done.:rolleyes:

Extractor. A numbered part uses a spring for tension.

Attachment 74097

Ejector. Not numbered, it is a spring in itself.

Attachment 74098

This started wrong when the OP wrote he replaced the "ejector" spring. That thing doesn't exist. So I assume he meant "extractor" spring.

Later he wrote the ejector broke. And here I believe he really meant it. Ejectors break quite often.

I apologize for the lack of clarity. Kurusu is correct, I did mean I replaced the ejector (photo #2).

The ejector is what I had to file down so it no longer contacted the frame. Just to be extra confusing I mentioned it the original post that I replaced the ejector spring, I should have said EXTRACTOR spring there because I also replaced the extractor spring in addition to the ejector.

Thanks again for the help. I think I'll try shooting again now that the ejector isn't dragging on the frame. I'll also bring the original extractor spring to the range and change it out if the issue still persists.

If nothing else I'll have fun with the carbine stock I 3D printed.

I was once warned that placing a stock on a 4" barrel military Luger was illegal as they were not issued in that configuration. I don't know if that is true or not but suggest check the law first.

So, just got back from the range and all is not well. The gun performed much worse this time than last time. To start with, as mentioned above, all that changed since my last trip was the ejector was filed down so that it didn't drag against the frame. My very first shot the spent case failed to extract out of the barrel, so I stripped the gun and replaced the Wolff extractor spring with the one that came with the gun, on inspection their heights were identical but the original spring has a noticeably larger diameter.

This trip I couldn't get more than one round to extract correctly, meaning sometimes I could fire 2 consecutive rounds with out issue but no more and most of the time it failed to extract after only one round. Still every time I cycled the toggle by hand the spent case extracted successfully, sort of at a loss about what to try next. Both the bore and extractor look ok to me but I'll try to get some pictures.

Sounds like you may have a dirty, scared, or scored chamber, or the headspace is too short allowing the mouth of the case to stick.

Try cleaning the chamber with a wire brush, and inspect for condition.

The ejector has nothing to do with your extraction problem as you describe it.

Thanks for the info. Even though when I cycle the toggle by hand the spent case comes right out, it could still indicate an issue with the chamber?

Yes,
when fired the case expands slightly.
You can also look at a fired case for signs of scoring, marks, or bulging that could make extraction more difficult.

Extraction by hand occurs much more slowly than when firing.

I'd bet though, that your problem is with the hook of the extractor, or some junk/gunk keeping it from coming down fully.

It could even be the extractor notch i the barrel is not cut correctly and interfering.

Pictures of the breech, and the extractor from the side and bottom would help.

Lugers like to be clean, and oiled.

Also, the original springs (talking mostly main spring here), unless they were tampered with in the past, they are generally the best option. They seem to last forever. Count the coils. If it's a WWI Luger it should have 19 coils, 21 if it's a 1936 to 1942 Mauser. I'm not familiar with Simsons or Krieghoffs (too rich for me :D) so I won't address them. And since I have no Erfurts, I won't say anything about them either.

For .30 Luger, I only have one. 1909 Portuguese Army contract. It has 14 coils. And it works great*.

* I have never fired Fiocchi on it. Maybe the problem has already been addressed by Fiocchi, I don't know. But there was at least a batch that had the shoulder in the wrong place and they gave headspace problems. In a Luger an excess of headspace can lead to a broken breechblock(at the rear end), and that can ruin a fellow's day. Seen it happen, and more than once:(. Rule of thumb fire five rounds. If you have any pierced primers, don't use that batch in a Luger anymore.

PS. What ammo are you using?

One test I would perform on this pistol if it were mine: I'd remove the extractor, and carefully place a round in the chamber and fire the pistol. I would then see how difficult it is to remove the spent case by hand. Probably would do it few times. I'd bring a dowel with me to the range in case I needed extra push to remove the case.

I'd also try both the extractor and ejector in a different pistol known to function well to verify they are operating correctly.

My experience is 75% of fixing Luger issues is to properly diagnose.

Thanks for the info, my Luger is not matching numbers, the toggle is DWM, the slide is S/42, the only mark I see on the frame is what looks like a lower case "a" written in cursive. I'll count the coils and let you know. I've been shooting 115 grain Winchester White Box. I did thoroughly clean and oil the whole gun prior to this range trip.

https://i.imgur.com/EDGv3Ft.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/XcZb7bd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/AK8mQyX.jpg

Couple of quick photos.

I posted some pictures of the extractor above, I don't have another gun to compare parts with so can anyone comment on how mine looks? I tried to get a picture of the chamber too but it was hard in the lighting I had available.

I don't see anything obvious in the extractor pictures, but you will just have to look at the chamber.
No way a photo will show what one needs to know. Shine a bright light in the chamber and look at it from a side angle and rotate to see as much as possible.

Save your brass next time you go shooting and let us see some photos of the brass.

Here are a few pictures of one of the brass from this past week, nothing jumped out at me but maybe you'll see something differently.

The chamber looks good to me, shiny, no pitting. If I put an unfired round in the chamber it goes in easily and if I tilt the barrel up vertically the round falls right out. If I do the same thing with a fired shell I have to push the round in the last 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch and if I tilt the barrel vertically it does not fall out on it's own.

https://i.imgur.com/8xvvQG3.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/nh1SvjL.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/SseSoMw.jpg

any markings on the sides of the brass?

Have you checked or had checked the headspace?

I'm running out of things to check, so next time try three different brands of ammo- in addition to your WWB!

There must be a reason! :)

Progress! First let me say thank you for your continued help. I was looking through my range bag and found 2 more 9mm Shells, the Luger is my only 9mm gun. I can't tell how old they are but they have to be from within the last month, and the only changes I've made in that time are replacing the main, striker and extractor springs plus the ejector.

Looking at the shells you can see some obvious marks on the side. Looking at the top view picture you can see there is an indent on one of the sides. Could this be a head space issue? How do I check head space?

https://i.imgur.com/M8Xxv8U.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vrtrBtm.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/q41t4Ky.jpg

I sprayed the crap out of the chamber with Remoil and took a brass brush and rotated it several times in the chamber and then ran the brush through the barrel. When I insert a spent shell now it is easier to pull it out with my fingers than it was before, I also took a pick and scraped the ejector and the recess in the barrel that the ejector sits in and got some crud out of there.

No one has commented yet on the brass pictures I posted, they along with how much an unfired round wiggles in the chamber have me concerned about headspace but I'm not sure how to go about checking that.

The "wiggling" is not "headspace; but may be related to an oversize chamber- which may or may not
be contributing to the extraction problem.

The brass pictures are too shiny for me to see the markings, but any significant scraping is not good.

Your cleaning may help.

Sometimes excessive headspace will show as a slightly raised primer- I don't see that in your earlier picture. Too little would "jam" the case mouth into the edge of the cut and would likely be visible, and I don't see that either.

The only reliable way to check it is to use gages.

If you give up after the next outing, and want to send the complete upper to me- I'll try it out by firing on one of my lowers and check the headspace. You can send the complete upper person to person as it is not a "firearm". No charge except return priority mail cost, which is like $7.

You have not put your city and state in your profile, you may be close enough for someone here to help in person.

Luger brass often has an oval shape, the case can slam into the side of the receiver on its way out. All my shooters do this to the cases. Your brass shape looks normal to me. I compared your spent brass to one of mine and it looks about the same as yours, including the dark rings nearer the mouth of the case.

When you have your extractor installed in the breechblock, does it move up and down freely when you apply pressure to the claw? It should be under stiff spring pressure, but it still should move smoothly and freely. I am wondering if there is extractor binding and the claw is not fully engaging the extractor groove of the casehead. I have to ask if you cleaned out the extractor bed before installing the new extractor. That area can surely accumulate a lot of crud and lead to malfunction!! I am just thinking out loud. :confused:

Don, that is very kind of you to offer to take a look for me. I updated my profile to include my location which is Indialantic, FL; near Kennedy Space Center.

There aren't really scratches per se on the casing, just the darkened area with the line in it that you can see pretty well in the last 2 photos I posted, and the triangular shape in the one on the left towards the top. Hopefully the cleaning did some good! Thanks again for all of your help.

That's very reassuring to know, gives me hope that it's not the head space. Thank you!

Thanks for the input. The extractor does move freely and smoothly, I'm actually wondering if it moves a little too freely, but I tested with the extractor spring that came with the gun and the Wolff one and they feel about the same to me, I even tried stretching the spring out but that didn't make much difference.

I did indeed clean out the channel for the extractor, it did have some gunk it that I had to spray down and get out with a pick tool.

So I've researched this a little after your post and it appears that you're correct, which is really a bummer. In order to be legal it has to be a Luger that would have come with a stock (artillery, navy) and even then, the stock has to be an original or reproduction identical to the original.

I was going to post the files to 3D print one on Thingyverse and make a post here, but I guess I won't anymore!

The brass is "springy" and slightly malleable because it's job is to be pressed against the chamber wall and seal during firing the round.

The darkened area on one side of the brass is blow-by (blow-back) that is occurring because the brass is not sealing against the chamber wall evenly.

The Luger chamber (except for the very end of Mauser production in late 1941 and 1942) was made with an offset obturation ring - stepped chamber. The circular mark around the brass you see is from that step in the chamber.

Here's the drawing associated with 9mm cartridges and Luger's patent on this:

Headspace is associated with the mouth to base cartridge measurement. The mouth rests on the right most step just prior to the leade into the barrel rifling. The breech face must be very close (thousandths of an inch) to the case base when the pistol is in battery.

You'll also notice that the entire chamber is very slightly tapered, including the area between the obturation ring and the right end of the chamber.

You may be dealing with damage or wear or dirt clogging an area around or in front of or just behind the oblation ring.

I've attached a copy of Luger's German patent number DE237192A from 1910.

This is awesome, thank you for the detail. I'm an engineer and love this stuff. I gave the chamber it's first real good cleaning with a brass brush in years so I'm hoping that may help the situation.

That indent has nothing to do with headspace, it's common in about 5 percent of the brass fired from a Luger. And I'm talking a Luger with no malfuntions.

You seem to have changed too many things at the same time. When the ejector is about to break you start having extracting an ejecting problems. Now that you have replaced the ejector that has in fact broken. I would try putting back the original springs and see what happens.

By the way, all Lugers I know have no problem using WWB, unless they changed their receipe for worse again. What I meann is 10 years ago I bought some WWB (a large amount of them) that last me until some 3 years ago that had outstanding accuracy. I bought some more of a newer batch, and even if they still worked flawlessly, accuracy wasn't there anymore.

Thank you for the advice. The original extractor spring is what's in the gun now. The accuracy has actually been fantastic with the WWB. My only problem now is the failure to extract.

Went to the range today to see if any improvements had been made. I still had some failures to extract using WWB ammo. I also did the "tape test" and posted that picture below, does that indicate that the spring is too powerful? If so, would I remove some coils? There are currently 21.

Anyway, something kind of crazy happened, the new ejector I just put in broke at some point, sheared in half. I switched to some Sig 124 GR ammo after the ejector broke, and I must say, it seemed to have less failures to extract, could the ejector have had something to do with the FTE's? When I did have an FTE I had to use a screw driver to get out the shell, it was too difficult with my fingers, not sure if that's the norm. Can anyone recommend where to buy an original ejector from?

http://imgur.com/a/WuAMywZ.jpg

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/WuAMywZ

And I think you should also put the original main spring back.

After you get another ejector of course. You know, filing a spring is always problematic. And the ejector is basically a spring.

PS. I think forum member Lugerdoc may have an original ejector for you

Thanks. Do you mind if I ask why you think I should put the main spring back? The gun wouldn't go in to battery with the original one, the toggle stopped short. Also, thanks for the recommendation for the ejector.

Reason 1. Original Luger springs are like the "springs made in hell". They are very and I mean very durable. It seems to be some kind of lost art, newly made springs never seem to be up to standard.

Reason 2. Your problems of not going on battery seem to have been "ejector giving up the ghost" related.

Reason 3. When faced with a "mechanical" problem in a Luger (or most things for that matter), change one thing at the time to find out where the problem is.

You don't change the engine of a car because at some moment it starts choking past some revs.*

Edit. * Perhaps at this day and age that's what they do.:rolleyes: But I'm from an older breed.:D