X-Ray or Cutaway View of P08???
 

Does anyone have an X-Ray or cutaway view of the P08??? I need to troubleshoot a problem and a cutaway showing the relation of the barrel extension to the takedown lever would be most instructive.

(The animated GIF image at Pistole Parabellum doesn't show this area).

Thank You! :)

What exactly is the problem? What is it doing or not doing that is the problem? There is a tiny spring (not a coiled spring) mounted in the take down lever bore that can be worn. Simple replacement and they are readily available.

Check the Luger Mechanicals e-book by Gerard Henrotin… it should have cutaway illustrations that will help you. Please identify the issue you are experiencing...

A picture is worth a dozen words... :)

Wow, looks like a long receiver on a short frame but you would know if that was the case. So my only other guess would be either the lug on the receiver or the lug on the take down lever is worn/damaged.

We have a winnah!!! :D

And the consequence of that is the toggle ducktail hits the frame when racking the barrel extension, instead of dropping behind it. I have to rack it like an M1900 (pull back then up) rather than like a P08 (just pull up). :(

So I want to explore various remedies; shims, weld build up, peening, etc.

Pic of ducktail hitting frame...

And I found a cutaway of a M1900 to study...

BTW: The protrusion is .035" past the frame...

That is a Bulgarian frame.
Ron

So, should I call it a 'M1900-Style'??? :confused:

may be some help here
https://drawingdatabase.com/wp-conte...ction-plan.png

Could be the frame was ground to remove the serial number? It looks to be at an angle to me.

Thank You! That one is quite nice! I can see every detail! ;)

Sorry, I should have identified it better. It's an Aimco clone. Aimco [Armas Intl. Mfg. Co. Inc.] puts the serial on the right side. :)

Aimco- all bets are off! :) I'd bet on a burr or deformation somewhere.

I would try a "good" upper on the lower, and the upper on a known good frame.
See how they fit.

Search YouTube or Google for 'Luger Animation' and similar. Here are a couple, there may be others. I have found the see-through aspects helpful in researching some function issues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DZ-DnTI_A8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw9g-CcrGW0

I know! But it's an affliction...A disease...Stainlessitis!!! :crying:

And there's another one coming!!! :eek:

Oh, the horror... :(

An X-ray.

Aimco...sheesh, my face is a little bit red. The lack of a lanyard loop threw me off. I thought it was a polished Bulgarian. Should have looked a little bit closer at the toggle knobs.

Thank you all! I believe I have what I need now. :)

:o Oops, I don't remember noticing this. If I did, I probably chalked it up to the reputed nature of these beasts for their huge tolerances among all the parts. The gun had worked OK during the several mags of ammo I put through it while I was its foster parent. I'd addressed a couple of issues involving metal displaced from use, and this issue would also be good to fix, if possible, to continue the pistol's "improvement."

(For everyone else reading this thread, I'll confess to selling this pistol to Rich, who was finally able to pick it up this week. I'd acquired it from another forum member several years ago and decided to pass it on after Rich tracked me down as the current owner, based on my posts in the WTS when it was sold to me back then.)

Now that we're into this issue, I'd go with the approach of building up the front surface of the lug. But first It would be good to check to see that this "adjustment" would affect anything else, such as the side plate's interface with the end of the sear bar/plunger.

If you are used to 'racking the slide' as you must do on a 1900-style Luger then it is not evident. (Pull back, then up). It does not affect function when shooting. :)

The advice on Unintended Consequences is sound. I'm trying to affix a small shim to the lug but I don't have a glue strong enough to hold it in place. I do have SuperGlue but I'm not sure I can get it off afterward. I would not want to contaminate a weld. :(

I accepted that any SS Luger would be problematic. I am still working out the kinks with the AMT Hardballer in the pic. It was also at the front of the stainless trend and has many of the same faults as the Aimco Lugers.

I don't demand perfection. "Good enough" is sufficient. :D

I agree. It's always a risk, too, with any used firearm bought before actually examining and testing it, such as from auction, etc. That it shoots quelled any major worry I had about it. And it is an excellent "example" of what this variation generally presents. Did you notice that the extractor doesn't have the little "ears" on the side?

I use the "fingers curled around the knobs" technique for racking any Luger. I suspect this method has enough rearward component to the vector that I never noticed this foible.

A dab of contact cement would hold a shim on securely enough to see what effect it will have, and some solvent will get rid of it quickly afterward. If you decide to go the weld buildup route, you can send the upper back to me for a little TIG action, the results of which you can then fit/work down to acceptable spec. 0.035" ain't much...

I will take you up on that. :) The welder I frequent has his own ideas on how a job should be done despite my explicit instructions. He tries to make his welds exactly to size, even when I instruct him to make them oversize and I will machine them to my satisfaction. :rolleyes:

I have a piece of .035" steel sheet, I'll try to make it to size and contact cement it to the lug. I noticed the takedown lever is loose in its hole, but I stuck a shim in front of it to restrict movement and it had no effect on the barrel extension...er...extension... :o

As David suggested, I contact cemented a piece of .035" steel shim to the front of the barrel extension lug, where it would contact the rear of takedown lever (first pic). I assembled the parts and checked it for proper function. Everything works like it should, so this modification [repair?] should be do-able. Second pic shows the barrel extension almost level with the front of the frame. I think .040" would be just about right on. :)

Here's pics of some of the differences [improvements?] that Aimco made. First pic shows the captive ball and coil spring that replaces the takedown lever hairpin spring. The extractor has lost its 'wings', the toggle knobs have no grooves on the outer diameter, and the toggle axle pin has a wide thin head. Oddly, the axle pin is not full-width; it is about ~.083" short... :confused:

Second pic shows the firing pin - it has only two flutes, 180º apart. The sear bar is not cut out; the frame has a removable pin to retain the sear bar.

And here is a pic of the frame ramp showing the wear this pistol has undergone. David surmised that the first owner shot 'hot' ammunition. :(

BTW, a description of this SS Luger and pics from the first owners album can be found here --

http://forum.lugerforum.com/album.php?albumid=491

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=30249

Edit: I read this post on Still's forum today, referring to the Mitchell branded SS Lugers...

Overheard at a local gun show regarding the Mitchell Stainless Lugers - "An American design, perfected by the Germans, made in Texas by Mexicans..." :roflmao:

My first stainless Luger was purchased some years ago, just bought it, as was new to the Luger procurement methods. Looked fairly ok, had some wear on the toggle ramps, but otherwise to me.........ok. So it came home with me.

The sear pin area showed this anomaly. So I ended up with a set of fairly expensive parts that I have to admit came in handy over the years for fixing some vintage Lugers.

One can see where the metal around the hole yielded gradually over time, probably somewhat to design, or probably moreso, overly hot loads.


Attachment 73853

Just going over David's notes on this stainless Luger...I forgot about the sideplate...

They replaced the 'Z' spring/axle for the trigger lever with a roll pin... :rolleyes:

Interesting, the extractor on mine is similar to the original design. The sear pin on mine is driven into a blind hole.

Does your pistol use the Luger style magazine or the oddball magazine?

I don't know. The stainless magazines don't go all the way in my 1900AE or Mauser Luger.

Brown plastic base and follower.

That's the later oddball magazine. From what I've heard, made in preparation for a .40 cal. version which was never made. Or maybe just to simplify manufacturing.

Thanks for the pictures and posts.
You guys have "confirmed" my experience with these US/Texas/Mexico ;) made lugers.

They may have worked ok when new, but after some rounds, "things" begin to happen- all bad.
I believe all can be traced to use of the "wrong" stainless steel alloy.

Some of the "improvements" that Rich pointed out are similar to those used by Mauser in their 1970s luger revival, they made manufacture cheaper and quicker.

I can add that it is likely after some rounds that the safety lever loses its tension and will begin to apply itself after each shot. :(

Also the mag catch or notch in the magazine is in a slightly different place(vertically), so some or most original original magazines won't function correctly when trying to use in one of these reproductions.

I always "wanted" one, until I got one- then I couldn't get rid of it and its troubles fast enough.

When I saw the picture of the frame and barrel extension mismatch, I wondered about the vintage Lugers over the years with long and short components worked out? Just a curiosity that I probably will never learn about; poor rabbit here.

Since the pistol is an early stainless firearm(remember how many first line stainless pistols failed?) adding to the recoil lug might take some pondering. I thought it was odd to see tolerancing that far out, something I have not noticed in my stainless Lugers; maybe two different ones?, but even that seems far fetched.

The shim of course shows the solution which is fairly obvious I think, but how to attach said shim. I like adhesives, the specialty ones today anyway; the Loctite Black Max that is used to attach vent ribs to barrels might be a candidate to ponder. This adhesive as special materials that can move under stress, elastomers(sp?) I think they are called. One would suspect the recoil would be under shock ever so often.

All in all, a good TIG man might be the best solution with machining afterwards if so inclined. Heat is always of concern when working on firearms, so that too comes into the mix for the homeguy.

I always thought that the early stainless Luger was by Mitchell's outfit, resembled the vintage pretty closely to include the magazine. I have never owned a Mitchell myself, could not get past the 6" gold lettering of the day..........and early pricing.

The later stainless Lugers were of course revamped some, one area was the magazine. Twas lots boxier than the original clip. One can insert the early Mitchell type in a vintage or newer stainless usually, but the converse, is that the wider mag will not enter the smaller earlier mag wells, whether stainless or blue. I believe that some early vintage Luger mag will function in the later stainless Lugers fwiw; another one of those use what you got if you gotta.

Some of the updates in the stainless Lugers I think I could have done without personally. The oversized sear pin hole is a weak point in the design, see previous pict in this thread. Still have not figured out how to fix that; other than took the easy way out and bought two complete 6" stainless Luger tops and another stainless toggle train. My primary 30 cal wildcat vintage Luger uses a stainless toggle train, just because I was told it would never work, says the maverick. One can learn about fitting, if one has the gumption.

My first beater Luger, the one with the broke extension, now has a 6" stainless Navy as they call it on top. I have shot it a lot over the years. The extractor went to the four winds in an indoor range, and was replaced with a vintage blue extractor from an original Luger. That was 15 years ago, still sings today. My stainless Lugers will outlast me, no doubt; what more could I ask of a firearm?

We hear talk about stainless Lugers and their woes, well, not much different than the vintage ones that are on their century mark. All will break if you shoot them, abuse them with hot loads and funny parts fitting, they will break sooner. Just take a look at the want adds, disregarding wanting parts with the right numbers.

I have always thought that the stainless Luger a bit of a challenge, and is somewhat unfairly burdened with news and fake news about them. Gotta have the faith to keep on with the program, and think for yourself. Just a simple opinion in a general sense.

Stainless parts can be a burden. Not all blue vintage will interchange to the stainless. Ever respring a stainless Luger, the Wolff spring kits have some springs that are not correct for the stainless, ie the trigger spring as I recall.

stainless collectbiles?.............probably a long shot, but once money was to be made, the Interarms Lugers are now collectible for some reason, odd how easy money does that. I am kinda glad I bought all my automags when the price was somewhat sensible, today's collector pricing for automags is out of reason for me. Two line north hollywoods are pricey now.

I hope the poster gets the stainless gun to run and enjoy it, it might be just fun whether it works out or not......at least the experience was there to be had, learning never stops.

Update:

A plan has been formulated.
Materiel is being gathered.
Fabricators are assembling.
Sheep are becoming nervous.
The US Postal Service has been entrusted with transport.

As the gladiators in Rome were wont to say..."Aut vincere, aut mori!"... :thumbup:

The stainless upper has arrived at its destination and is presently undergoing examination... :)

Meanwhile, I am looking the frame over and noting more differences in construction. One such is the safety. It's not pinned like a P08 but rather is held in a slot in the frame by the spring tension of the lever itself. It can be removed by lifting the lever up and sliding it out of the slot. The safety bar has an extension that fits over the cut in the frame where the magazine slides. To keep it in alignment, I suppose.

Frame is marked with the manufacturer 'OFM CORP' [Orimar Firearms Manufacturing].

Another~ https://search.aol.com/aol/image?p=l...g&action=click

Cool! There's a round in the chamber but the toggle is open... :eek: :D

That shows what I was looking for...That only half of the takedown lever/barrel extension lug is engaged... :(

Rich,
I would have thought two measurements would have told you the amount of engagement?

Since you are only "worried" about the alignment to allow easier cocking of the toggle; why not a piece of deldrin or nylon cut to size and placed in front of the lug? or just a metal shim cut the size of the opening? Would not have to be attached to anything, would it?

Just thinking in writing. :)

I know this is not an "elegant" solution, but how much are you going to fire that piece ?

I could even cut a piece of wood and wedge it in there...Half a spring clothespin fits just right. :)

Or a wad of solder, heated up and poured in to hold it 'just right'. ;)

Or polyester resin... :p

Lots of ways to 'fix' it. Drill & tap a hole to let a screw hit agonist the front of the takedown lever, forcing it and the lug back. :thumbup:

Or just leave it be...It ain't hurtin' nuthin'... :roflmao: