What Makes A US Test Eagle...?
 

What gun features makes a US Test Eagle a US Test Eagle ? Here is what I can figure out...have I missed anything ?

1. Typical 1900 Old Model features.
2. American Eagle stamp on chamber.
3. Type 2 thumb safety lever.
4. Lack of "Germany" stamping(s).
5. Lack of BUG proofs.
6. Commercial style serial numbering.
7. The last 2 digits of the serial number are stamped on the right side of the strawed take-down lever spindle.
8. Traditionally in the 6100 to 7100 serial number range (but many out-of-range high and low numbers are reported...since the printing of M. Reese's book on the US Test trials).

Would appreciate knowing if I have missed other features...

p.s. The 100 - US Test Presentation guns C. Kenyon mentions in his 2nd. book, "Luger - The Multinational Pistol" on pages 52-53, conform to all the above features except :

- They are in the 7200 serial range.
- The last 2 digits of the serial number are stamped on the left side of the take-down lever.

Questions : Has this group of US Test Presentation guns been "accepted" ? Is there documentation that a later group of these 100 guns was delivered to the US government folks ? How did C. Kenyon come to this conclusion about these 100 later Test pieces ?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Don't know Pete, but this particular "run" of guns interests me highly. I have held several of the "correct" and "accepted" numbered Test Pieces and like them. Since there were 1,000 made, there is a much higher chance of getting one.

I don't have Kenyon's Multi-National Luger, so that was news to me?

Hopefully you will get feedback from Ron or others?

Ed

Ed,

This 2nd. book by C. Kenyon is more of a "coffee table" book. Lots of wonderful guns photographed really well, but not a lot of technical text to go along. The owners of the guns showcased are not mentioned or given photo-credit...which I enjoy knowing from other books. It is always nice to find/own a luger one day that might have been in a world-class collector's collection in the past...e.g. guns from John Morgan's collections that have now found new homes...

The forward mentions that this book is a precursor to a larger work that Mr. Kenyon has in the works. When I met him at Tulsa last year and asked him when his next book will come out, he said probably not until after he retires...

Simpson's has this book fro sale. It is item # 13 on this page link :

http://www.simpsonltd.com/books_for_sale.htm

I have also heard that this new Kenyon book will have a chapter covering guns that can be described as being in the "that gun cannot possibly exist" category...should be an interesting book when it comes out.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Pete, I agree with your above desription of the "US Test" lugers. You also might want to add to your list the few out of range M1900AEs that Bannerman purchased from the Army. I think that Charlie Ks thinking on the higher out of range lugers, is that the typical rejection rate at the time of production was about 10%,so possibly a 100 or so would have come from a higher serial number range. TH

Hello Tom,

When I first started reading up on the US test Eagles, I assumed the 1,000 pistols was in a consecutive range...M. Reese does not state this explicitedly, but I assumed this from his "reported list" of ~ 6100 to 7100...(but only 95 or so guns were in Reese's list in 1975...)

Since LF member, Ron Wood, has now tracked many low & high out-of-range Test pieces, it is obvious that the 1,000 guns were just pulled out of the commercial production, maybe somewhat at random.

To confirm this, I have the follow-up question :

Have 1900 Commercials (i.e. Germany stamped and with BUG proofs) been reported that displayed serial numbers in the 6100 to 7100 range ?

If yes, this would help support the fact that the Test Eagles were not consecutively made.

If no, maybe the thinking that the 1,000 Test Eagles were consecutive (at least the first 800-900 gun batch) should be re-evaluated...but then what about all of those reported out-of-range guns...(???)...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">When I first started reading up on the US test Eagles, I assumed the 1,000 pistols was in a consecutive range...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">This is the " accepted " range, as the only place where you can find serial numbers are of two places that I know of.
1. The four guns by serial number by the lieutenant who was issued them and when he wrote his report mentioned the four serial numbers
2. And the guns turned over to Bannerman for sale.

People seem to get excited when you question these "facts", as obviously only the accepted numbers are the good numbers. And I do believe that you have to start somewhere if you want to have a scientific basis to your fact finding.

Assumptions I have made, are;

1. DWM would have had a master list of guns sent to test sites.
2. There are always lists made of items put onto a ship for transport. There is a very good chance that whatever ship transported the guns had (has) a list of how many and by serial number.
3. Military units have always kept track of weapons by serial number, so there should have been records made of guns received through supply channels and again when those weapons were leaving the supply channels.
4. Springfield Armory should have had records of these transactions on their end.
5. All of the above is a long time ago, and after a set period of time, records would be purged at the local level and destroyed after 7-10 years at the higher levels.

Ed

As Pete has pointed out and as many of you know, I have been collecting the serial numbers of observed or reported US Test Trial Lugers for many years now. The criteria for including a Luger in the list are that it must have the features that Pete listed in his first post above, except that around serial number 7136 the last two digits of the serial number starts to appear on the left side of the takedown lever on the visible flat portion (as opposed to "hidden" in the commercial style).

I have posted the current list in the Member Gallery for your information and consideration. As new serial numbers are discovered, perhaps from some of our members, I will update the list periodically. There is no claim that this list "validates" any "above range" or "below range" Luger as being a Test Trial example.

From what I have observed, I have some doubt that the serial numbers of the Test Lugers were totally consecutive, but I have not a shred of evidence to support this other than the known above range examples in the Bannerman purchase. The numbers are listed for historical purposes and are an attempt to aid students of the Luger to evaluate what is known and what is not known about the Test Trial Lugers, hopefully to lead to further discoveries and perhaps someday uncover the true range of this most interesting bit of US history.

Hello Ron,

Thanks for the great work over the years of tracking these nubmers and putting such an easy-to-read list together.

Taking Reese's original list of ~ 95 Test Eagles and building it to nearly 275 guns is quite the dedicated work effort over the years !

Can you direct me to the Bannermann numbered guns. Were these numbers published, somewhere...?

I would like to mark up my copy of your List with these Bannermann guns...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Pete, in several books, it just states this:

{The Luger Story, Walter}

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Bannerman2.jpg

I have a test eagle pic that I would like to share but do not know how on this format..maybe in the photo section?

Les,

There is a tutorial for posting photos in the Site Help and Feedback Forum... if you find it too confusing, you can send me the photo via email and I will be glad to post it for you.

Check your private messages by visiting your profile.

Hello Ron,

Do you also record "condition" remarks when you enter a US Test into your database ?...assuming you have received this info. from the owner who has asked to have their piece entered into the database ?

Could folks contact you if they are planning to buy a certain US Test, to see if it might have been previously recorded ?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Pete,
I have a few notes on condition, but mostly on pieces I have observed myself. While some individuals have stated the condition of their Test Luger examples, I find that "condition" is so subjective that I am reluctant to publish any reported condition, including my own. For example, I had one gentleman say that he had a "mint" Luger (not a test piece). When I finally got to see it, it would barely qualify as 90%. When I mentioned that to him, he indignantly replied that it "certainly was mint considering how old it was".

I would be glad to respond to anyone planning to purchase a US Test piece, and have done so on several occasions. I included all serial numbers that I had recorded to that time in the list I posted in the Member Gallery. Since I posted that list, I have added serial number 6795. The breakout of serial numbers is now 7 "below range", 238 within the range of 6100 to 7100, and 31 "above range" examples.

Ron,

Anytime you have a change in your list please delete your original photo in your album and replace it with the current list... this can only be done by yourself...(or an Admin :) and I am still kinda busy fending off virus attacks for clients)

thanks...and have a great weekend.

I just purchased a 1900 American Eagle Luger. The serial number is 7555. There is the number 55 stamped on the left side of the strawed take down lever. Type 2 thumb safety.
I purchased the piece on consignment last week at a pawn/loan store in Nevada. It came with the original US stamped russet leather holster and one unmarked wood bottomed clip in a brown russet leather clip pouch. I removed the grips and saw "55" on each of these as well as the word "Dawson" in ink longhand written on inside. Every other piece I can see on the inside/outside has a "55" on it as well. No proof marks anywhere that I can see. I paid $1500. Just really liked the gun. It was my birthday and my wife said "get it". Just wanted to know how I made out. Any email would be apprecieated. Thanks, Tom
thek98sniper@aol.com

Hello Tom,

The knowledgable folks here can give you a close valuation if you can estimate the % of bluing left on your gun and the % of strawing left on certain small parts.

Condition, condition, condition; is everything when it comes to collection pieces.

Also, is yours "Germany" stamped anywhere and are there any "importer's" marks...?

Photos would help as well, if you can post some...

p.s. (Added on 8-23-03...) Since your AE luger has the two last serial numbers on the "left" side of the take-down lever, it would preclude it from being a "US Test Eagle", as theirs are stamped on the rounded, right side of the take-down lever spindle...
Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Tom,
We also need to see pictures of the holster. If original and in good shape, you may have gotten a better bargan than you think.

Hi Pete,
You wrote: p.s. (Added on 8-23-03...) Since your AE luger has the two last serial numbers on the "left" side of the take-down lever, it would preclude it from being a "US Test Eagle", as theirs are stamped on the rounded, right side of the take-down lever spindle...
Regards

Isn't this a characteristic of the supposedly last 100 Test Lugers that are found above the 7100 serial range? 7555 would be in the correct range with the 55 on the left flat of the take down lever. I have 7735 with these characteristics and it is thought that THEY are test pieces by most, but there is no way to prove it. The 6100 to 7100 serial range has been drilled into us for a long time with no actual facts to exclude anything above them. The Lugers bought by Bannerman include 7147 which is out of the 6100-7100 recongized range, so apparently the 6100 to 7100 could very well have some holes in it. Kenyon told me that he felt if it wasn't marked Germany, had no Bug proofs, and had the take down lever marked either on the right or left flat, then he felt they were test pieces. Not all agree with this. According to what I've been told, only the test pieces in the serial range from approximately 6000-8000 are not marked Germany. That is the most important factor.

So, if you want an accepted test piece find one in the 6100-7100 range. If you find one outside of the range that isn't marked Germany, has the AE, no bug proofs, and has the two digits on the left flat of the take down lever, you could possibly have a test piece, but not everyone will conceed to this. I have one of each. -- Bill

Hello Bill,

Yes I agree with what you have written.

I was waiting for Tom, the original poster, to let us know if the gun was "Germany" marked or not. I think he already did state it has no proofs (i.e. B.U.G. stampings).

Doesn't Kenyon call those later 100 (or 200 as M. Reese indicated...) pistols as "US Test Presentation" lugers ? Is yours as nice condition as the one shown in Kenyon's 2nd. book ? If yes, it must be a beauty !

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Bill,
Just to echo your thoughts, as I indicated in my first post above, the serial number on the left flat of the takedown starts to appear around serial number 7136. So if you accept "above the range" Lugers as possible test pieces if they have all the other characteristics, you can't eliminate some based on the left side serial number.

Pete,
My test in the 6100-7100 range is very, very nice and is probably a strong 96% plus original conditon -- #6689, while #7735 has more grip strap wear is probably closer to 94% condition. Both are way above average in conditon for these tests, if they are test pieces? -- Bill

I have been over this piece with a 10x jewelers loop several times, and I cannot see any indication of either proofs or "Germany" stamped anywhere on it anywhere.
I would be happy to send pictures to anyone interested. Just me your email address? The piece is in excellent condition, no pitting and showing only honest wear from its holster. Trigger is mostly yellowed, I think you call this "strawing" as is the little piece of steel beneath the eagle.
Thanks for the help! Tom in Linden Michigan
thek98sniper@aol.com

I have (with the aide of my very patient wife) posted pictures of the pieces. Cut and paste this in your URL and hit "go". No password required. Sorry this took so long, I just have marginal computer skills. Tom
http://www.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=...21b32854c8250a

Tom, the gun is nice, the holster and magazine pouch appear new to me? They make copies of the US Test holster and I bet, that is what they are? The gun appears to be worth the price you paid, but looks reasonably honest in the photo's.

From the pictures, has the gun been reblued? In pic 10S, it almost appears there is blueing over slight pitting, how does it look in real life?

Ed

I don't believe the gun to be reblued. The wear pattern looks pretty honest from the holster...i.e all the correct places from where it would have rubbed when it was placed there and removed. Seems like they would have blued those parts as well when and if they did the rest of the piece? Can't be sure about the holster. The patina on the copper rivets seems to have invaded the leather in such a way as is only possible with age, but then....it is in awfully good shape. I can send more pics if necessary. Tom

So Tom, I don't doubt your judgement, but this gun is several hundred off of the test pieces and has a test holster.

Test holsters are more rare than the guns, and therefor fairly valuable by themselves. Over a $1,000 I believe, so that is the concern on whether it is real?

The gun, definately what you paid for it, even reblued AE's go for close to that, so overall you did okay. Still, I definately have a reblued Arty, and it has developed wear paterns. 20 years of shooting and handeling does that too, :D

:) Ed

Tom,

Thank you for the pictures. The holster is a very good quality reproduction. It was most likely made by El Paso Saddlery. They make perhaps the best reproduction, the pattern for which came from an actual original US Test Trials holster.

The Luger on the other hand is genuine and in very nice condition. The "bruise" on the right grip is caused by the flap closure stud and would indicate that the gun has been carried for an extensive time in a US Test Trials type holster. The mark is consistent with US Test Lugers that I have and have observed. I also believe that the bruise is contemporary with the rest of the Luger and has not been caused by the recent use of the repro holster.

I do not believe your Luger has been reblued, and overall condition is a bit above average for the US Test pieces I have observed, although not in the â??extra specialâ?� category. From its appearance and your description, I think that even though it does not fall into the traditional test serial number range (6100-7100), it most certainly falls into that contentious â??above the rangeâ?� area that is the subject of much debate. It may one day be accepted as a valid US Test Trials Luger.

You have done very well and have certainly received excellent value for your purchase price, perhaps even pulling off a real steal. Only time and collector community consensus will tell.

Hello Tom,

Thanks for posting the photo album showing your very nice pistol. Congratulations on a very good buy !

Sounds like you also have a jewel of a wife, who encouraged you to buy yourself a luger for a birthday present. Not too many understanding wives around in the Membership.

My wife was very supportive during my first few acquistions and continues to be so. But I do believe she has lost track of what I have in the gun safes... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Enjoy your luger and start looking for your next piece !!!

p.s.

The "little piece below the eagle", as you described it, is called the extractor. Yours is the old model type that only acts to extract the spent case from the chamber. The new model extractor (after the 1906 models) did this and acted as a "loaded chamber" device as well and was shaped much differently. The other parts on your 1900 AE (Test) pistol that should be "strawed" are indeed so, as can be seen from your photos.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Many thanks to all for your time and consideration! Would it be possible to have my serial number (7555) added to the right-column list posted in the Luger Forum Gallery?
Tom

Tom
Yes. I hope to get that and one other added this week.
Ron

Tom:
FYI I have serial #7554, in about the same condition, which matches your description. It came in a cowboy type holster. I have an ELPaso saddlery repro test holster but mine is left handed, as I believe the originals were.

Regards Ken D

Hello all! I have in my collection a 1900 American Eagle #7577 with NO "Germany" stamp, NO proof marks, unblued under the safety (lower position), no marking on the magazine, and the "77" on the take down bolt is on the LEFT side. The finish is very good, probably 90%, and is polished about the same as a 1906 AE in my collection. Straw is great. I do not believe the gun has been refinished. The edges of the eagle are somewhat raised and all numbers are sharp and clear. There is a slight bit of pitting on the back of the receiver and the pitts and sorrounding areas are a rust color rather than blue.I know where this gun has been for the last 15 years, but not before. Would appreciate any comments any of you may have. Aldo, what is the "Members Gallery" where the lists of numbers is, and how do I get into it? Regards, R.David

Richard, If you came to the forum via www.lugerforum.com then it is on your left of your screen.

Can you provide pictures of your Luger? Top, sides, barrel, etc?

Ed

Ed: Thanks for the info on the Member's Gallery. I found it. I will try in the next few days to take some photos and post them. R. David