Japanese Mum Luger
 

This is floating around the net again.

Thoughts on definitive answer to this?

I've always understood that they are fakes.

You got a link??? :confused:

fakes

Been "debunked" several times. Total fake.
The Japanese didn't even put "mums" on their own made pistols!

Here goes?

What you have always understood still holds true.
Ron

The Japanese did take captured Dutch Lugers, but these were used in semi-official capacities and never marked by Japanese armories.

Good shot! :)

I sort of vaguely remember, in an old-mans memory, that it was sacrilegious to allow weapons with the Chrysanthemum to fall into US hands...

Here's one explanation -

https://www.gunboards.com/sites/banz...MissingMum.htm

Hey, here's a stamping die from an old guy in Prior Lake! :D

https://www.gunboards.com/sites/banz...ry/Die1600.jpg

Hmmm, I have a gun with Elven runes on it, it must have been made in Valinor...

Not a photo of my Baby Nambu but photo showing "mum" on cocking piece.

Sorry Hugh, but that is not a "mum"; it is simply machining for a better grip to remove. All the T 38 and T 99 rifles and carbines have a similar pattern on their safety, for "grip" when turning.

The "Mum" is a very specific flower with a certain number of petals, which is only used for the Emperor of Japan- I believe the Emperor's mum has 18 petals, and the "regular" mum only 16. But I could be off on the petal count, the significance is that they are different and the pattern on the Baby safety is not a mum with petals.
:cheers:

Well, the mouth breathers over on this "collector's" site are still arguing convoluted scenarios where this Luger might be possible. There is no reasoning with them.
I am convinced that if I engraved an R2D2 on a Luger, I could get an internet expert to argue a time travel scenario.

Pictures! :D

On Facebook it is being argued, unsure of any other site today. However, I have looked at a couple - I think never in person.
From what I understand;
**the writing doesn't make much sense
***Chrysanthemum wouldn't be on a pistol - not on T14 nor a T94
****One argument is that it is in Mike Jones book (so early that it likely isn't a fake is the thought process)
*****So few of these - shouldn't there be scores that come up?

There is one in Harry Jone's book Luger Variations pg 209, pub 1959. ;)

Datig also mentions the possibility of Japanese 'Mum' Lugers (but no pictures) in the 1958 revised printing of The Luger Pistol.

As with the Totenkopf Luger(s), I seriously doubt that anyone in 1959 (or earlier) would have bothered faking a less than $50 Luger... :rolleyes:

IMO there must have been at least one with the markings. Maybe not an 'official' stamping, but realistic enough to convince the experts of that period. :thumbup:

"As with the Totenkopf Luger(s), I seriously doubt that anyone in 1959 (or earlier) would have bothered faking a less than $50 Luger...

IMO there must have been at least one with the markings. Maybe not an 'official' stamping, but realistic enough to convince the experts of that period. "

Well, could have been an early Shattuck boost, nothing like taking a $50 pistol and making a $200 pistol out of it!

JMHO.

Did Shattuck ever list or show a 'Mum' Luger to any of his many friends here??? He could have had one of the 'real' Mum Lugers...Or been sold one... :)

BTW: Jone's pictures show the Japanese 'Mum" Luger as being in the Russ Storer Collection, and shows 'Gesichert' as the safety marking (not 'Rust').

Anyone who says never on lugers has 1. not been around long or 2 Has not looked or studied lugers. Bill

I did not see a Japanese marked Luger on Shattucks personal collection document

It was not back from the shop yet...

They were already faking stuff in the 1950s....

Ok,
someone come up with a reasonable guess or even unreasonable explanation as to why the "Japanese Forces" would mark a luger with a Mum, when they "never" marked their own pistols with a mum?

I can't think of any explanation- other than lugers with mums are phony as a $3 bill.

Don, I think it is just a phantasy story to boost the price on something an uneducated but enthusiastic buyer would want bad enough to pay for... nothing out of the ordinary here for a grifter...

It needn't be the "Japanese Forces"; it could have been an officer/NCO who had to buy his own sidearm and chose a captured Luger and had the Mum engraved to honor the emperor.

Lots of explanations. :)

A Japanese solder wanted to give the Emperor a souvenir from the front and had it marked so that no one would try to appropriate it.

The pistol is dated 1940. The Japs and Germans were not fighting one another in 1940 or thereafter. They became allies in 1941.

Years ago Doug Smith was asked to go through the shop of a recently deceased Luger "mechanic" near Cincinnati. Among the fellow's stuff, Doug found a Mum die as well as a Spandau die.

Used to copy the originals, no doubt. The point is, to copy something, there has to be an original to copy... ;)

Yes Rich, but that doesn't mean the original was a Luger. Would you still think the same if Lugers showed up with JEEP and Louis Vuiton logos?
Norm

If Louis commissioned the engraving, it would be an original. :thumbup:

In the 1940's it would have had to be a WILLYS logo... JEEP was just a nickname for that General Purpose (GP) vehicle...:cheers:

signed, a former owner of a 1942 WILLYS MB (Jeep)… :)

I've actually examined two of these fakes in Tulsa and Louisville. The sellers attested that they were issued to the security folks at the Japanese Embassy in Berlin. The sellers were two of the "usual suspects".

Here is another photo of the Luger in question (from Facebook).

Is it strange that both this Luger and the one in Jone's book are both stamped 1940 and 42 on the mid link? The last two digits for the Facebook gun appear to be 95 and the Jones one 91 so they appear to be two different guns.

This does not prove anything one way or the other but it did strike me as an odd coincidence they would both be the same year, make, and model Luger.

It has been so long since I have looked at the photos I have forgotten what the Japanese inscription translation is... Anyone know?

I quit studying Japanese when I went over to the "dark side" - i.e. lugers.
But the characters don't make much sense- from the top:
unrecognized
I
so
Type
10
4
Year

so at least part is Type 14 followed by the character for year.

I think they are just characters copied from some where and put onto these two lugers.

Certainly there is no reasonable explanation for putting "Type 14 year" on a luger.
Just a side note, the T 14 was introduced in 1925, not a significant year in luger lore.

JMHO.

I wouldn't doubt it. Both Numrich and Sarco, as well as eBay, have Waffenamp dies for sale. There are likely other dies for faking markings out there.

One of the things that has always puzzled me about fake chamber stamps...The chamber is curved, but the stamps are flat. The chamber markings on Lugers were originally roll-stamped, in a kind of press exerting great pressure.

How to stamp a curved graphic with a flat die??? :confused:

I know from a popular TV show that a 1911 slide requires a lot of pressure to stamp the letters/numbers on a flat slide. Doing a Luger chamber with a big Mum, or crossed rifles, or a skull would require some kind of fixture to hold and support the Luger barrel extension, and a press of some kind (mechanical or hydraulic). And a way to roll the barrel extension against the flat die.

So how do the warehouse mechanics do it??? :confused:

Face***k...


Uh-huh.

I think that firearm marking has come a long ways in method and supporting mediums. Stamping, engraving, chemical etching, lasers etc.

With reference to making a mark with a handstamp and hammer, making a consistent depth of mark of a flat stamp onto a curved surface comes up. Speciality stamps and rolling tooling obviously exists, but the old flat face stamps still persist in the custom industry.

I was taught to mark the area of application, some use masking tape, some use other mediums as perhaps magic marker. Tis done I guess to provide alignment of said mark. Hard to retreat gracefully from the first blow and depression of steel.

The stamp would be placed where you want it. Then a solid first blow to the stamp upon the curved surface, say barrel. This makes an uneven depth of mark, deeper in the middle than on the sides.

The stamp is carefully(very) laid into the first movement of metal, the stamp is then tilted towards the shallow side of the mark, and struck again. This is repeated around the perimeter of stamping mark(shallow sides), by angling the stamp off the original first struck axis. A solid hold of the barrel is important. Touch for control of depth comes with the skill level for such, handwork that is worthwhile always takes time in grade.

With care, the stamping will be consistent in depth over the curved surface. Once done with the hammering/swaging of metal. the upward metal edges are either draw filed down to the surface or some will just mount in a lathe and work that way during polishing of the curved surface for colorization or just polish.

Other methods are out there as well, but the above is a simplistic approach that takes some touch for a nice result.

FWIW............

Rick,
thanks for the clear summary- no doubt correct. I am curious:
Who taught you this technique and what were you stamping? ;)

The Japanese did invade the Dutch East Indies in 1942 and captured a number of Dutch Lugers.

Datig quotes a report that some 3,000 KNIL Lugers were captured by the Japanese in 'about 1942', and that 'certain of these captured Lugers found their way to the Japanese homeland, where they had some Japanese characters added to them'.

I know it is popular these days to sneer at Datig, Kenyon, and Jones, but they published pictures of Lugers with Mum, Totenkopf, and crossed rifles long before latter-day experts declared them all to be 'fakes'.

It is my habit, when there is doubt, to believe pictures. :)

True, but actually they were faking stuff before the war even ended!
See photos below. The Leatherneck is dated March 1945.


Matt:cool: