My New Luger...
 

Just posted some photos in the Member's Gallery of my Reno gun-show acquired 1906 DWM Portuguese M/2 luger.

Gun is serial # 2866, original finish, all matching, with a Portuguese stamped magazine, "AE" stamped holster, drift pin, and a "repro" cleaning rod. It has a 4-3/4" barrel and is in .30 luger caliber (7.65mm).

The Portuguese proof of a "circle/triangle" appears on the left side of the frame, on the back of the frame above the lanyard staple, on the underside of the barrel above the serial number, and on the bottom of the wooden magazine.

The left side of the extractor is marked "carregada" and the thumb safety marking is "polished".

Question : The front frame well (where the take down lever spindle runs through) has a "flamming bomb" proof mark. Is this typical for a commercial 1906 Portuguese gun ?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

I'll let someone more informed answer your question, but how about a run down of the show? Unfortunately, I was laid up and couldn't attend.

Aaron, you missed the best Reno show ever, in my opinion. Will post a more detailed run-down a little later. I personally inspectd Pete's M2. A great piece he bought from Ralph and Ralph in turn bought from a walk up guy. Things like that happen there all the time. Just a great piece that Pete can treasure. He was in the right place at the right time. As far as the flaming bomb proof, I too, am not expert enough. Thought they were usually seen in model 1900 wells BUT Pete's M2 is all original in my opinion. Will watch for replys to this thread.

I already replied to Pete via private email that my M2 has this mark in the forward frame well. Sorry I couldn't make the show - it sounds like you guys had a great time.

Hello Ron,

Thanks for your time in replying (both times...). My M2 does not have that 2nd. inspector's stamp in the frame well that you mentioned (i.e. shield with a diagonal line through it...). I will need to hunt down an authentic Portuguese cleaning rod soon...

Hello Aaron,

Sorry you were not able to make Reno this time. I did start a new Reno topic in the Gunshow section. I am sure others will fill in the details about their show experiences...

We will have a similar LF event at the November Reno show...please plan to join us then...

Hello Doc,

You are not off the hook...you owe us photos of your new Simpson pistol... :p

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Pete,
The second inspector's mark is on the barrel of my M2 just forward of the circle/triangle proof. The shield mark is a DWM barrel proof. There is only the one mark in the frame well.

Sorry, Ron, for my misunderstanding...

No other proof on my barrel...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

My M2, serial No. 2088, has what appears to be the number "8" in the recess.... the only mark there. (The top of the "8" may be slightly open but it's difficult to tell, really, as it's not stamped too well.) The circle-triangle Portugese proofs appear on mine in the same places as Pete's. I bought my rig from a man who purchased it when they were first imported back in the late 1960's.

Doubs, the "8" with the top missing may be the same "flaming bomb" proof that Pete has. The shield proof, if my recollection is accurate, is simply a commercial DWM barrel proof that appears sporadically, not all of them have it. And Ron, we did miss you in Reno. I am looking forward to meeting you.

Hello Walker,

My "8" definitely has a "pie slice" that cuts through the top "0" of the figure "8". The two halves do appear to be "flames"...the two flames look like double-lined horns on a bull.

I first thought mine was just an "8" until I looked with my 10x loupe...

I will try to take a better photo of my proof in the next day or so...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Pete Ebbink:
<strong>Hello Walker,

My "8" definitely has a "pie slice" that cuts through the top "0" of the figure "8". I first thought mine was just an "8" until I looked with my 10x loupe... I will try to take a better photo of my proof in the next day or so...
Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hi Pete,

I'll try to have a better look at mine when I can. Over the next two weeks I'll be moving my office from the company building to my home so it's going to be a busy time for me. I'll try to take a picture as well.

Walker

Pete the top image is my 1906 M2 SN#2341. It looks like two 8's stamped on top of each other? As a comparison I also took a pic of my 1900 AE SN#18982 which definatly looks like the flaming bomb proof. http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/proof.JPG

My 1906 Portugese M2 #2528 also has the "flaming bomb" inspector's mark inside the TD lever well. Actually appears to be a figure 8 with the top circle split in half. This is not the same inspector who used the Taurus sign (semicircle atop a full circle) on the M1900 lugers. The barrel did have the DWM shield, but overstamped with the serial. Interesting note: The "triangle in a circle", Portugese acceptance symbol, was later used by a Mauser inspector as his symbol on the rear of the frame of some post WW1 M1910/14 Mauser 25acp pistols. I've also seen the M1906 Brazilian "B in a circle", used as an inspector's mark on some Mauser 98 rifles. Appearantly, the German ordnance establishment did not throw away expensive dies, just recycled them to new inspector's as their symbols. I'm sure that there are some more examples. Let us know what you've noted. TH

Thanks, Walker...for the great photos.

Mine is like your lower posting...

And thanks, also, to Tom Heller, for the great information.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

My recently purchased two M2 Portuguese Lugers have all the above marks and I am feeling better about buying them. My question is that there seems to be a number of Portuguese holsters coming up for sale in various locations. What distinguishes a Portugese holster from any other Luger holster of 1906 vintage? What would be acceptable price ranges for these holsters.

Pete, lets see some pictures of your recently purchased treasure. Its perfectly acceptible to brag on this forum.
Big Norm

Hello Norm,

I did show off my new piece...it is in the Member's Gallery...

If you do not have Eugene Bender's book on luger holsters & accessories, let me know and I can mail you hard-copies of the relevant pages about Portuguese luger holsters...

Send me a private e-mail (at "pebbink@pacbell.net") or a PM with your home address and I can get a package out in the mail to you...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

In addition to the normal AE marked Mo6 Portugese holster for the 120mm barreled M2, I've also seen these same holsters converted to the GNR pattern by the addition of a longer belt loop and even owned one stamped inside the back "Germany" & "1920", which I persume was a left over, sold later on the commerical US market. TH

Pete, according to Costanzo, page 355, the figure you describe should look sort of like a bull's head, horns pointing up and a third short line between the 'horns' and with an 8 in the lower right portion of the well. He says this mark is found on a 1900 DWM. The shield with the slice thru it in the upper right side is found on the 1920 Navy if it is in the well.

It is interesting that in the Bender book, the M2 holster is not displayed with an M2 Luger! Likewise, the GNR holster is not displayed with a GNR! Both are displayed with a 4" barrel Luger with a stock lug and no grip safety.

Herb,
The Costanzo figure on page 355 (also shown and explained as proof #70 on page176) is not exactly the same as found in the frame well of the M2 Portuguese. Nor does the M2 proof look like the flaming bomb proof that Costanzo illustrates as proof #118 on page 192 and attributes to the US ordnance (the M2 proof has only two "flames" separated at the top as opposed to three co-joined flames of the ordnance proof). Costanzo does not have an illustration of the marking that is found in the M2 frame well. I might hazard a guess that the Luger that was used as an example to illustrate proof #70 may have had a poorly or partially struck proof and so his illustrator attempted to clean it up and #70 is the result. It also could be that #70 is another proof mark entirely that is correctly illustrated and Costanzo just doesn't have an illustration of the type of proof mark found on the M2. The proof is as clearly shown, double stamped, in the top example posted by P.08 (nice photo by the way).

The shield proof is an early commercial DWM barrel proof. The fact that it shows up in the frame well of a 1920 Navy is, I believe, just another example as cited by Lugerdoc of the recycling of an earlier expensive die used as a later inspectors mark. Since the M2 Portuguese was a military contract in a separate contract serial number block, I would suspect that the presence of a commercial proof on the barrel of an M2 is an example of using up an existing stock of overrun barrels, much like the example of Swiss proofed barrels found on the earliest 1900 American Eagles.

Pete,
while looking at my consecutive numbered M2's I just noticed that you are only 4 numbers off of my lowest number 2870.
would the holsters for these guns be brown or black

Pete,
while looking at my consecutive number M2's, I noticed that my lowest number (sn2870) is only four numbers off of yours.

Are holsters for these guns supposed to be brown or black? I noticed that our friend on GunBroker from Corpus Cove, Texas has two black ones for sale. "Lugers at Random" has a picture of one that might be brown.
Big Norm

Black

I just got done looking at Pete's pictures on his M2. Nice rig. While I was looking at his holster, I could not see the S.E. marking on the lid. He said that it is there, I just could not see it. Is this marking supposed to be embossed or ink stamped? Does anybody have a picture of it?
Big Norm

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Big Norm:<strong> Are holsters for these guns supposed to be brown or black? Big Norm</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I have two. One is all black and of solid leather. The other appears to have a solid back but the flap and front may be a sandwich of leather. The back on the second one is brown while the front is black. I've had the second one for 25 years or longer and it's undoubedly original. I've sent pictures of both to LugerHolsterRepair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Big Norm:
<strong>I just got done looking at Pete's pictures on his M2. Nice rig. While I was looking at his holster, I could not see the S.E. marking on the lid. Big Norm</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Norm, the stamp should be "AE". Both of my holsters are deeply stamped with "AE" into the leather.

Doubs,
I noticed the sandwiching of leather on Petes holster. I wonder if there would be variants of this holsters coloring. These holsters were produced about the same time as the German army mandated that holsters would be black. So I wonder if some holsters might have been delivered brown and some may have missed the dying process while others may have been delivered black.
Big Norm

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Big Norm:
<strong>Doubs, I noticed the sandwiching of leather on Petes holster. I wonder if there would be variants of this holsters coloring. These holsters were produced about the same time as the German army mandated that holsters would be black. So I wonder if some holsters might have been delivered brown and some may have missed the dying process while others may have been delivered black. Big Norm</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Norm, there's a distinct possibility that the "sandwich" holster I have was originally made in brown. I say this for two reason: The interior of the holster is brown (including the flap) and the back has a small streak or two where the black dye ran down the back while being applied. The other holster was always black as far as I can tell.

The "always black" holster is interesting in that the interior of the flap is almost like a suede and has unit markings and what appears to be some kind of inventory or tracking number deeply stamped into it.... very sharp and easily read. Except for barrel length, it looks identical to the Navy holster that was discussed a week or so back that was on e-bay, IIRC.

Sorry, Norm...

The "AE" is there on the back. The "A" is lightly struck but the "E" is much deeper. If you look at the back of my holster, it is just to the right of the belt loop's right side.

Next time I get the camera set up, I will try to take a better shot of the "AE"...and will add to the Member's Gallery posting.

Regards,

Pete...

Hello Again, Norm...

I have mailed the 7 pages from E. Bender's book on Portuguese leather & accessories to you today. You should see it by Monday at the latest at your home.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Thanks Pete. Maybe its time that El Cheapo Norm got a Benders book. Except for artillery holsters I never paid much attention to holsters. I always bought the gun and if it came with a holster, fine and dandy.
Big Norm