FYI 1900 clips
 

What I want too do, with out getting blasted for bidding on the 1900 mags that was offered on eBay, was too offer for your own use, is that the clips most likly are not "importable", if that is a real word. After winning the first clip I was offered the second clip, and I told the seller I would take it also, now please don't wack me for that, I want too share with you for your info what may help prevent you from the same hassle. I will be brief, what has happened, after days with UPS and BATF, yes BAFT over a clip is this...the seller, and correctly so, told UPS Canada the the clip are "historical and irreplaceable, UPS will not insure them no matter where they are coming from, they will not insure irreplaceable items, their ruls not mine. Also the issue was brought up by the seller that BATF with a approved form 6 could allow the clips in with insurance????? I am baffled by the whole process....if the clip are still available when I may take my next hunting trip up that way. I will most likly go out of my way to go look at the clips and buy them should they still be for sale. It's just FYI guys and my experance. thanks.

Do you mean that you were unable to purchase them?

Policeluger,

For your information, Don should not have mentioned to UPS that they are 'historical and unreplaceable' items because I know for a fact that UPS will not not ship 'unreplaceable' items, and they insure items up to $50k. I suggest that Don returns to UPS and makes another attempt to ship them with insurance without declaring the contents as 'historical and unreplaceable'.

If UPS will not accept the package, then try with Fedex and tell Don to avoid saying 'unreplaceable'. To the best of my knowledge, it is not illegal to import a Luger magazines into the US and a Form 6 is not required.

Best of luck,
Albert

I was unable to buy the mags because I was unwilling too send off $800.00 and have the clips uninsured, it was/is all about being covered. And I know what Don should have said, but this is a mess, far more then I care to go over. Don several, as he called then "scenarios" for getting the mags here just won't work. This was what I felt to a smooth "buy" gone way bad...I believe he is going to offer them to LF members shipped on a form 6 from BATF...man i just do not want BATF in on a clip deal, maybe when I move and go for my first full auto. I even went to a Fed agent friend for advise, it should have worked but didn't...well like mules we keep trying

Why do people have to follow the letter of the law? Maybe that is why Britain, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada have lost their handguns. They admire the government too much.

I worked for UPS for six months and dealt with unreplaceable items.

It comes down to, placing them in a box, maybe a bit larger, insure them for a 1,000 dollars, state that they are old gun magazines, with no other explanation. UPS does have the feeling recently that ANY gun part must go to a dealer, so maybe have Fedex or somebody else mess with it. In the big picture, a $1,000 is outrageous, they get other items for more than that. And if they think it is breakable, they will get bent out of shape if not wrapped well. But I would just insure them for a $1,000, or maybe better yet, like you said, if you go up to that area, buy them direct then and there.

Gentlemen, the facts:
1. I was assured by the single Canadian expert who deals with the export of firearms, a member of LF, and local worthies that there is no problem mailing a luger magazine to the US as long as it does not hold more than 10 rds.

2. Because of the amount of money involved, I felt obligated to protect the buyer. i telephoned US Customs in Blaine, Washington, and described the magazines. The agent said that i should check with BATF and the State Dept. From addresses on the internet, I sent emails to both agencies. No reply to date.

3. I telephoned the enquiry # for BATF in Washington DC, and, after passing up three echelons, was told that a Form 6 is necessary, even though their posted FAQs indicated that a magazine is not a firearm.

4. Being a retired public servant, and smelling a mindless BATF bureaucrat in Washington DC, I telephoned a BATF Inspector in Seattle, Washington. He said that that there is nothing in the Regulations that he could see that required a Form 6. however, he indicated that because of the amount of money involved, $800US, BATF might be interested. We agreed that to protect the buyer from mindless bureaucrats who might hold up any parcel mentioning gun parts, it would be safer to file a Form 6.
The simple solution was to get a Form 6 and ship by Canada Post with adequate insurance.

5. Meanwhile, I was told to ship UPS. Two points here: I am not a business, so I cannot get insurance; second, because the magazine is old,UPS deemed it irreplaceable. I explained that it is not irreplaceable.

i could have shipped the magazines by mail with insurance. What protection would the purchaser have if US Customs seized the magazines? None

In conclusion, the 2 magazines are still available at $400US each.

if a prospective purchaser trusts the US Customs Service, I can mail with insurance.
The safer alternative is to file a Form 6 and mail with insurance.
UPS is not an option because I am not a business and cannot get insurance.

Don, does UPS insurance run differently than in the US? I mean, in the US they ask how much it is worth, you tell them $800 and they charge you 35 cents extra for each $100 dollars of extra insurance?

You don't carry the insurance, UPS does? Is it different in BC, Canada?

I guess you are about 90 miles north of Seattle?

When i spoke with a UPS representative,(who knows where when you call a 1-800 number), she said that I cannot get insurance on my parcel unless I have a business. I don't have a business. It was further complicated by the age of the magazine, which she declared irreplaceable, and therefore uninsurable; I told her it could be replaced, but with some difficulty, there being perhaps 5000 marked model 1900 mags in existence(who knows how many there are, but certainly more than 4000)

My point is simple: whether shipped by Canada Post with insurance, or UPS or any other carrier, with or without insurance, there is some level of possibility that the US Customs Service will seize the parcel. WE live in a heightened state of security following Sept 11th; if you want to be safe use a Form 6.

I had no idea of this when i posted on ebay;like you I assumed there would be no problem because a magazine is not a firearm. I could have simply shipped the magazines with insurance. maybe all would have been OK. But from my enquiries, I have learned otherwise. its an expensive lesson for me.

Don,
The pistol will be considerably diminished in value if the magazines are separated from it. You have retained money through the loss of the sale for you would have suffered a net loss with this sale.
Does not Federal Express ship in Canada? UPS employs out of work gorillas to conduct destruction testing on packages (they call it handling and delivery).
I would have told them that it was an antique auto part and insured it for $800 with no questions asked. If it was lost, no problem. If they decided to rip it open and inspect it, I will guarantee to you the the federal employee would confirm that it is in fact an antique auto part and expound on what a rare part it is indeed!

I can mail by Canada post and get full insurance.
But as far as I know, if the parcel is seized by US Customs, the insurance is void. From my calls to US Customs and BATF, this is a possibility. What we are deALING WITH IS bureaucracy, paranoia and ignorance. When I phoned BATF in Washington DC, I was told a Form 6 is necessary; I don't believe it nor do you, and probably it is not necessary. But they might; and its their decision,Ever tried to argue with bureaucracy? the left hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.

I could have got cute, and mailed the mags in a curled up magazine and marked it magazine, but why take the chance?

Has anyone done a Form 6? Is it painful?the BATF Inspector i spoke with,who seemed reasonable to me, said there would be no problem, and he added "better safe than sorry". Nobody wants valuable historic magazines to be seized and perhaps destroyed. We are only temporary custodians of history

It may be for the best that the 2 spare mags are kept with the Musgrave Luger. Last weekend I visited the Musgrave section of St peter's Anglican Church near Duncan. I have more details of Robert Musgrave (birth and death dates) and can pursue through the local archives. He comes from a prominent local family.

Wes- will you post the picture for those following the Musgrave story?

Have them mailed REGISTERED MAIL.. It is how we mailed large shipments of blank traveler's checks [worth many thousands] when I worked for Bank of America...also, shipments of coins and currency!

Every postal employee that has custody has to sign for it...and I have never heard of a loss except when a plane 'goes down'..

I use that method all the time! and it only costs about $8 more. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Orv

Any sufficiently advanced bureaucracy is indistinguishable from molasses. --Anonymous

Sorry I didn't mention registered; but i took that for granted, Registered and insured.

I've tried to indicate that US Customs, with BATF, may chose to seize a magazine(s). To be safe, a BATF Inspector advised me that the purchaser should file a Form 6.

My caution is to protect the purchaser. If a purchaser wants an insured, registered luger magazine(s), without a Form 6, I'd be glad to
oblige.

Correspondence from Don Beasley concerning the two commercial magazines and the BTF contained the following messages between Don and the gov't agency:

-----Original Message-----
From: Don Tarasoff
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 7:08 PM
To: fea@atfhq.atf.treagov
Subject: ATFOnline Query

dear sir/madam:



I am a Canadian citizen writing from Canada



I have listed a 8 round Model 1900 Luger magazine for sale on eBay. There are no problems exporting from Canada because it is not a high capacity magazine. however, when i telephoned US Customs they advised me to check with ATF and the State Department. I looked at your FAQ2, item A6, and it seems to indicate that magazines with fewer than 11 rds are not subject to the GCA.



1. Can i export my Luger magazine to the US through the post office without special permits or other conditions?

2. Should i contact the State Department? if so, do you have an email address or telephone number?



The ebay auction closes on November 22nd. The item # is 735404890.



thank you



Don Tarasoff

2190 james White blvd

Sidney, BC

V8L 1Z4

Canada




TO: Don Tarasoff



REGARDING: Exportation of an 8 round magazine from Canada to the United States.





The magazine that you stated you had for sale ( 8 round Luger magazine) is not a large capacity magazine. However, it is considered a firearm part. Therefore an ATF Form 6 - Part 1 (Application and Permit for Importation of Firearms, Ammunition and Implements of War) must be completed by the purchaser of the magazine. If the application is approved then the purchaser will use the approved ATF Form 6 - Part 1 to have the magazine released from Customs. Since the importation of firearms, firearms parts, ammunition and Implements of War is handled by ATF there is no need to contact the State Department. You may use any method that you like to mail the firearm magazine.



Thomas R. Stewart

Chief, Firearms aand Explosives Imports Branch

202-927-8193

trstewart@atfhq.atf.treas.gov

Ed Tinker,

Please include the text of this correspondence as part of the Lugerforum FAQ that you are working on.

Thanks!

<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

To satisfy my own curiosity, I entered BATF+Form6

The infamous Form6 is a simple one page document.

Perhaps Form6 and the instructions should be posted in the anticipated FAQ section together with the BATF memo.

Provided by & posted for Don Beasley
Link to BATF+Form6 PDF file:

BATF+Form6.pdf

To my fellow friends and collectors,

After reading the post provided by Don from the Chief of BATF Imports regarding the importation of a Luger magazine, I hate to say that the US has one of the most bureaucratic gun laws on the planet! I cannot believe that an old Luger magazine (less than 10 rounds) requires a ATF Form 6 for importation which usually takes 6-8 weeks for clearance. It is sad to see how terrible crimes in the US are spoiling the joy of collecting rare items. I guess that the Second Amendment is not saving the interests of US citizens and collectors! Unfortunately, with all the hysteria which has been caused by the 911 tragedy and the escalating crime in the US, I believe that the gun (import) laws might never be relaxed to a reasonable level allowing collectors the ability to import rare items from abroad.

I am providing hereunder ridiculous examples which were implemented by the BATF covering a few specific areas:

1) Mauser C96 Broomhandle pistols below the serial number 15000 (Cone Hammer and some Large Ring Hammers included) are considered antiques and exempt from the GCA because they were supposingly made before 1898. If that is the case, the BATF have their facts wrong! According to factory records which I have obtained from research, Cone Hammer pistols were manufactured between 1896-1907. Furthermore, can anyone explain to me the difference between a Cone Hammer and a Large Ring Hammer which are the same size and fire the exact same 7.63 mm cartridge which can be commercially purchased today? What makes a model 1930 Small Ring any different from a Cone Hammer, and why are the former not considered antiques? I assume that this issue/subject revolves around the 'pick out of the hat' number 1898 and why cannot it be changed to 1945?

2) According to BATF Import laws, a pre-war (even a highly collector grade) Walther PPK cannot be imported into the US as a result of its size, however, those PPK pistols already in the US can be bought and sold without any problem. What is the reason of the BATF not allowing the importation of pre-war PPK pistols if they can still be found on the market? Are they afraid that C&R PPK pistols might be used in crimes because it is a concealible weapon? What is the difference between a PPK and a PP or a post war PPK/S besides one centimeter in the length of the grip?

3) Military C&R firearms need to be imported by a licensed importer which can degraded by the awful sight of dealer import stamps. For example, what is the difference between the rare 1906 Navy Military Luger and 1906 Navy Commercial besides a few proof marks? What is the apparent reason of using a licensed importer if the firearm is a military C&R pistol? Why cannot a normal FFL dealer import a military C&R pistol?

In my opinion, the BATF is not helping in the preservation of history and they do not really recognize the collectors society who enjoy collecting WWI and WWII firearms. Although I am a German national, I can understand the frustration, shame and anger that US collectors might be experiencing.

Without knowing all the details, it might be beneficial if US collectors were introduced to a form of gun laws used in Germany which are reasonable. For example, private individuals in Germany who wish to become collectors can apply for special collector licenses which give them permission to collect specific types firearms such as Lugers, Walthers and Mausers. With this type of license, German collectors gain the same rights as US collectors and, moreover, they are allowed to import military and commercial firearms listed in their license without the services of a dealer; they simply have to pay a 10% import duty to German Customs on the declared value of the firearm.

In conclusion, I believe that the uncontrollable crime in the US is having a crippling effect on the collectors society, and unfortunately the bureaucrats and politicians do not know the difference between a collectors item and a modern firearm because to them, a firearm is a firearm.

By reason of the fact that my German nationality may have little bearing/impact on US import laws, I hope that I can eventually encourage the BATF to loosen their regulations on C&R collector items which will unlikely be used in any crime. Hopefully, a regettible experience I am having at the moment with US Customs will turn into my favor and maybe create a positive change in the future.

Albert

Albert, I applaud your understanding of the BATF regulations that you cite. It's beyond that of most US collectors and certainly most US citizens and our elected representative. Unfortunately, I don't expect any positive changes in the near future. The GCA of 1968 seems to be etched in stone regarding importation with only a few more rigid interpetation during the Clinton administration. On the other hand, one of our military members was recently reassigned to duty in Germany and wanted to bring his collection along. He was told that the pistols that were not made in Germany would have to go thru the proof house and be so marked. Obviously, they are still here in the US. Tom H.

Folks,

Lemme see if I got this right?

The guvmint is working this hard to keep out a M1900 Luger magazie while the same guvmint is letting towelheads with bombs slide in and out of the country like going to the mall? What MORONS!

Am *mighty glad* I don't get all the guvmint I pay for.

Tom A.

Albert did a great job on researching, and I will print out a copy just for referencing back too. We tried again at Christmas too get the mags, and the hold up was once again on the Canadian side. I have just about washed my hands of the whole deal as it seems it will never happen. The clips where just a toy for me too play with anyway. I just can not believe it was such an ordeal. Perhaps I'll get too BC in a few months to hunt and can at least stop and see them on my way north.

This thread confirms the adage: "The two most common things in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity"

But never mind...

Tom A.
Who has an urge....d...when confronted with such mind-numbing asseninity

Are you directing your comments towards me, not a very kind reply too whom ever it is extended.

Oh heavens no! Please excuse me if I inadvertantly caused offense.
Tom A

Well I just retired from 34 years of "white collar welfare"....you hit it on the head. Have a happy new year.