Interesting story in 1945
 

Hi Mike,

we all would like to hear the "interesting story in 1945" between Harry Jones and Sid Aberman.

I'm sure that Ralph Shattuck will shed some light into the mystery of the .45 million dollar luger and will explain all the details of this story to the luger fraternity.

Incidentally, Reinhard Kornmayer just put an article in DWJ.

Heading : "Pistolen-Karabiner in .45 Kaliber mit zweifelhafter Herkunft".

Translation : ".45 pistol carbine of dubious origin".

Klaus

Hello Klaus! <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

Welcome to the Luger Forum!
I have sent you a private message, when you get the spare time check it out. Thanks alot!

Very Best Regards
Brandon Metcalf

Hello Klaus,

Such message threads regarding taking "pot shots" about the .45 luger carbine is just what shut down our old Luger Forum...

All of us are waiting to hear the outcome of this controversial gun.

But on the new Luger Forum, we all promised to stay away from hear-say info, inuendo, and such pot shots...

Just my 2 cents...

Pete
Reinhard Kornmayer is the most credible and respected Luger historian in Germany. DWJ is the most prestigious firearms/history magazine published in Germany. With Ralph Shattuck's help Reinhard Kornmayer researched the .45 Luger Carbine. He put an article concerning his research in DWJ.

Klaus informed fellow collecors that the title of
that article translated to ".45 caliber carbine of dubious origin". I dont think that members of the Forum want to be kept in the dark concerning important non-seller research concerning this Luger. Let's not let the forum become known as the head-in-the-sand bunch.
Jan

Hello Jan,

I understand your point completely and agree that an informed debate is healthy and no way suggested we avoid controversial topics or dicussions about certain lugers.

I was just reacting to a "new" Forum poster that, on their first posting, seemed to jump into the controversial "bon fire" that lead to the old Forum shutting down. The start of this message thread addressed to "Mike" seemed to be a little out-of-sequence, a bit as well...

Maybe you or John D. could forward a copy of this German magazine article to Ralph, talk to Ralph on the phone and give Ralph a chance to respond, and then both opinions could get posted on the new Forum for all to read and digest for ourselves...afterall, a fair debate should never be a monologue and should give both parties "fair and equal" air time. If the "shoe were on the other foot" as the saying goes, I would imagine you would appreciate the same fairness and open debate opportunity.

We all are also waiting for a major American gun magazine article and cover story to come out that may support the gun-in-question's authencity.

Respectfully Yours,

Pete

Klaus,

Would you be able to supply us with the translated text of the article in DWJ? This would shed a little more light on what is going on.
Looking forward to seeing this article.

Pete,

I think maybe Klaus saw my post under "interesting post/thread from Ralph" concerning a Ralph story from 1945 and instead of adding reply he started new topic and thats why it starts Mike,.

By Klaus informing collectors about an upcoming article by Reinhard Kornmayer in DWJ he is taking a "pot shot" at the .45 carbine?

Who are we waiting to hear from on the outcome of this gun before it can be dicussed on the luger forum? everything else seems to be fair game.

Maybe someone can help me here,because I sure dont understand this.

Mike

Please explain to me "What" shoe is on "Which" foot? Maybe this will explain to me what in the Sam Hill is going on here!

Mike, Pete was just trying to be ultra careful, this forum means a lot to many people and hearsay talk about people without facts, can get John into trouble. From the title, it sounded like a negative, but of course magazine as well as newspaper people want a title to grab attention.

Quoting an article and its title is fair game and the quoting and discussion of the article should be encouraged and I don't imagine there would be a problem with it.

Discussion from all involved is what this is about and I would love to see a translation of the article.

Any idea when it will be out or is out Klaus?

This topic is getting a little tense and defensive. I encourage open discussion as long as it is constructive, friendly and not personal. Keep it objective. It is not necessary to defend any arguement or individual. Just stick to observable facts, not conjecture or undocumentable opinions. Thank you all for considering this message and keeping this forum wholesome and informative.

Translation of Reinhard Kornmayers article in DWJ (July issue) was written very objectively and by no means in a negative sense.

I consulted my English/German dictionary and checked "zweifelhaft" which translates into English : Doubtful, dubious, suspicious and uncertain. You guys go ahead and take your pick.

Here is my attempt to translate said article and please remember, I'm not a professional translater.

Attention Parabellum-Collectors. Check out this offer from the internet.

"Parabellum-Carbine .45 Cal. of dubious origin"

This information from the USA caused worldwide attention. Ralph Shattuck, a dealer from Peoria/Arizona, specializing in Parabellum-Pistols for decades, is offering under consignment a .45 ACP Parabellum-Pistol-Carbine for sale. The purchase price is $ 1,000,000 belief it or not.

There might be only a handful .45 ACP lugers out there, maybe 20 at the most. Serial # 2,4,14 and 17 are reported. These particular pistols were larger in size than the more common 7.65mm or 9mm cal. because of their .45 ACP.

The production was ensued at DWM approx. 1906 with trail tests run at foreign armies, particularely at the US Army where the 1911 Colt 45 succeeded.

A .45 ACP Parabellum-Pistol-Carbine was unknown until now. The authenticity caused passionate discussion among Collectors and historians alike, especially in the internet.

Information are available at www.worldoflugers. com and www.lugerforum.com. The discussion at the Luger Forum was cancelled due to the immense intensity.

We'll keep you posted as further information develop.

Hello Klaus,

Thanks so much for taking the time to do the translation and to post. And a belated, Welcome, to the Forum !

I apologize if any took offense to my posting...I was just attempting (maybe a bit lamely) to keep the topic "fair & balanced" as FOX News says...

<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

Klaus, Kornmayer, Jones, Shattuck,
Kornmayer reports .45 caliber Luger serial numbers 2, 4, 14, and 17. Jones pointed out how the same Luger can be mistakenly reported twice. How many of these .45 caliber Lugers have been verified by a second reliable source? Perhaps new production .45 Lugers are being confused with the originals. Which ones were reported well prior to the time of new production in the United states.

What are the details of Shattuck report in this fourm that Jones and Alberman had an altercation in 1945 over a "fake"(?) 45 luger?
Jan C. Still

Excellent translation Klaus. Thank you for providing the information to those of us who do not subscribe to the very fine DWJ.

Well.......

That article was a lot of nothing. If nothing else, the title was a little irresponsible and sensational while the story discussed how upset we were.

Thanks for the translation Klaus. Wish I could read and speak German. You are fortunate.

Klaus,

Thanks for the translation of the DWJ article. I think Reinhardt Kornmayer was factual without taking sides or drawing a conclusion as to the authenticity of the piece in question. The German readers are now aware of an existing .45 Caliber Parabellum carbine that is causing battle lines to be drawn among collectors. Clearly, in the absence of unquestionable proof one way or the other, the debate is likely to endure for some time to come. It should be interesting.

Hi Wes,

I have to respectfully disagree that the title of the article was irresponsible. To date there has been no (to my knowledge) account of the provenance of the Luger in question. Rare firearms (which this carbine certainly is, if authentic) without provenance are dubious. â??Dubiousâ?? simply means that doubt exists concerning the firearmâ??s authenticity, because there has been nothing to establish its authenticity.

Warm regards,

Kyrie

[quote]"Parabellum-Carbine .45 Cal. of dubious origin"<hr></blockquote>
The title made a statement that the origin of the .45 carbine was dubious, and then offered no argument or proof that the statement was correct. It made a statement that the dubious origin was fact.

The title did not state that many or some thought that the origin was dubious. The story did not follow the title.

I thought I was going to learn something from this article which would confirm or refute my suspicions concerning this gun. I need better fodder than this to confirm my opinion.

That is tabloid technique to give a title that says one thing and the body of the article says something different. A better title would have been "Parabellum-Carbine .45 Cal....Origin disputed"

Wes
in defense of Reinhard's article in DWJ.

You state that Reinhards article is a "lot of nothing", "irresponsable" and"sensational" I would suggest that it is a reflection of the information supplied by the seller. Thus far the seller has supplied such statements as "the finest historic firearm ever discovered", "original" and "not a Krausewerke". These are unverified/undocumented seller statemants.

Of coarse Reinhard's article does not include the undocumentated seller hype. This leaves little to report("a lot of nothing") This objective and accurate article is just what Reinhard and DWJ intended.
Jan C. Still

I shall stand down, in deference. I agree with what you have said, totally. The article was a disappointment to me because there was nothing in the article to substantiate or deny the gun's authenticity.
(now I am in hot water!)
<img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

Wes,

You should also take into account that direct translation from one language into another is not a science... and in many cases it is quite impossible to convey the same intended meaning in the language of the translation...

I know this because I have lived 8 of my many years outside of the U.S. and have a conversational working knowledge of two other languages...

If I had to translate the title of the article without benefit of a dictionary, I would have said that it stated (in general): "A pistol carbine in .45 caliber with an unknown (or doubtful) origin" (and that is no bull, just the facrs as they are known today)

Klaus' translation of the title is about as accurate as can be stated in English (I meant American... sorry Tacfoley, and our other UK members!) [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Seriously, we can argue about the pro's & con's, but the reality of the situation is without documented provenance on the origin of the .45 caliber carbine in Ralph's possession, we may never know the real story...

The fact that it has remained unknown in collecting circles up until now makes it curious...not a fraud. I will wait for the evidence. If it never comes, we still have to recognize that it is the ONLY .45 claiber carbine KNOWN to exist. Unless it is proven by either metallurgy or other scientific or forensic testing to be of modern manufacture, I will have to give the weapon the benefit of the doubt. I doubt seriously that anyone is going to purchase this gun at the price of $1,000,000.00 (USD) until it's authenticity is proven beyond a doubt anyway... the only persons who would risk that kind of money would be backed by terms and condition of the sale should the gun be proven to be of modern manufacture at some future date, or someone who personally KNOWS it to be authentic.

just my pound of flesh on the matter... [img]rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

[quote]Originally posted by Jan C. Still:
<strong>Klaus, Kornmayer, Jones, Shattuck,
Kornmayer reports .45 caliber Luger serial numbers 2, 4, 14, and 17. Jones pointed out how the same Luger can be mistakenly reported twice. How many of these .45 caliber Lugers have been verified by a second reliable source? Perhaps new production .45 Lugers are being confused with the originals. Which ones were reported well prior to the time of new production in the United states.

What are the details of Shattuck report in this
fourm that Jones and Alberman had an altercation in 1945 over a "fake"(?) 45 luger?
Jan C. Still</strong><hr></blockquote>

Jan,

Here's what I know on the known and claimed .45 Lugers.

Un-numbered = Norton Gun

#2 = Aberman Gun

#4 = Albert at Imperial Arms seems to know something on this gun. I would like to know when it surfaced & location of sn#'s

#5 = Pictured in Luger of the month in
G&A by Michael Reese Feb. 1974. Is the Norton Gun.

#14 = Pictured in Walters 1977 book is also the Norton Gun.

17 = Same questions as sn #4

Also have several other claims of guns found, but have always turned out to be one or the other of the two known guns.

With all the information,documents,letters and photos I have at my disposal on these guns.At this point in time, I think (educated guess) that the "Luger World" should look at any .45 cal Luger (of this 5" variation - don't want to ruffle any feathers) with great suspicion other than the 2 guns that have been known for 40+ years. As I have never seen anything, with what information I have or obsereved from others, that indiacate any others exist.

As for what took place in 1945, I, along with you and seems others, Are waiting to hear from Ralph Shattuck on this matter.

Hope this helps,
Mike

Mike, do you have any idea (or guess) why Reese or Walters would call it a different serial number, although it has no serial number? Is the Norton gun marked at all?

Ed

Mike,
I (like Ed) can't shake that Twilight Zone feeling in this thread. How can the "Norton gun" have no serial number, serial number 5, and serial number 14? I have a queasy feeling that the answer's supposed to be obvious, but go ahead, hit us with it. [img]eek.gif[/img]

The Norton Gallery .45 Luger is also reported in Edward Scott Meadows "U.S. Military Automatic Pistols 1894 - 1920" as being serial number 3, but as I had observed from a rather limited view and Michael confirmed, only the magazine is numbered 3.
If indeed other original .45 Lugers exist, someone should know where they reside if they have indeed been seen and reported in the past.

It is not hard to imagine multiple numbers being attributed to the same gun. There are numerous examples of early documenters of Luger data publishing information that they had received from trusted sources but had not verified first hand. They were trying to record what they believed to be correct, but as time passed and additional information became available this early data has been found to be in error.

[quote] If indeed other original .45 Lugers exist, someone should know where they reside if they have indeed been seen and reported in the past. <hr></blockquote>

But Johnny, while what you said is true, it does not account for any possibly existing original .45 caliber Lugers that have NOT been publicly seen or previously reported. My gut instincts, without any additional evidence is that this is what we are dealing with here...

I ponder the recent discovery of the .45 caliber carbine and I have to wonder... if it is proven to be of the correct vintage, and it is serial number 21... How many more may exist? That is a lot of if's... How can we or any other authority prove beyond a shadow of a doubt whether or not this gun was produced in the early part of the last century?... We need some scientific input from knowledgeable sources to answer this question. I don't know the answers, but I certainly have plenty of questions... [img]confused.gif[/img]

John,
The discussion centered around .45 Lugers that had been previously reported, but cannot now be confirmed. Those that have not been found will have to be another story as they are found.
If we were not curious about a newly found and seemingly pristine example of a .45 Luger we would all probably be collecting Avon bottles.

There is certainly nothing wrong with a healthy curiosity... despite what happend to the cat! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

And while on the subject of cats, we must also remember that the Leopard cannot change it's spots.

------------
"That which is striking and beautiful is not always good, but that which is good is always beautiful."
Ninon Del 'Enclos

Well, considering how many Lugerâ??s ended up on the ocean floor, by scared GIâ??s that thought theyâ??d get into trouble, or the Brits that were told to dump â??em, it is very possible that some prototypes or early examples just rusted away in a few days...

<img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />