Damaged carbine
 

Here is a early model or as some people call it a 1902 carbine. This one has been fairly heavily buffed and re-blued and a new barrel has been put onto it, it’s in 30 Luger, which was the original caliber.
however it still has the forearm and the piece that is metal and goes on barrel as a helper and I’ve talked to GT and he’s going to try to put it altogether for me
I ordered a barrel however it’s in 9mm, so will have to use low power shots

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Question, should I have new barrel blued before I have installed or after?
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I know Jerry warned me about the tab on the forearm, I’ll find that and warn GT
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ED,
I don't know of any tab on the forearm that Jerry has warned you about. There is a tab/lug on the bottom of the barrel that contacts the spring loaded accelerator plunger in the forearm...is that what you are talking about?
Also, is the new barrel you have ordered made for the long frame/receiver?

I do not know. It is a Martz barrel, am I making a mistake? Eugene says he’d make me one...

Don't know Ed. Martz made long and short frame carbines, so you would have to check the treaded portion of the barrel. A long frame is 2mm longer than a short frame.

I would actually guess that he made it for new model lugers...

Perhaps Lugerdoc knows?

Ed,
If you want a .30 barrel, it can be done fairly easily. I have one or two that could be adapted.
No reason the 9mm would have to use reduced loads, DWM sold old model 9mm pistols with leaf springs and 4" barrels; a longer barrel is heavier and would be fine with normal loads, IMO; especially with the aux. spring in operation.

Ron makes a good point with regard to the receiver length. I would expect that most of Marz barrels were for short receivers.

Does the barrel that is left have the "tab" ? I don't see it.

How about a picture of the frame where the "arm" attaches?

If you are not going to reblue the entire "upper" when done, then , yes have the barrel blued before it is installed.

I guess by "restoring" you also mean to go back to the rear sight on the barrel?

The laminated leaf spring on the 9mm guns had one leaf that was 50% thicker.
Ron

Here is close ups.

There is no hook, because that is some aftermarket barrel - I would like it to look as carbine original as possible.

rebluing the entire gun would likely make it look no worse than it is?


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NOTE - that the action was funny, not stiff, but almost no spring action, so, took out that spring and put in another I got off of ebay (turns out i have 4 other 1900 springs :) ) - working much better, but if I switch to 9mm, it would need a welded on leaf?

Ed, This pistol is a nightmare scenario..Should be fun for awhile though...That rear sight addition is kind of ugly.
The barrel. That's going to be a real trick to come up with one of those! You need a long frame thread, a rear sight (tricky right there!) and an underlug to interact with the spring assist. All in 9MM? Whew! That's a tall order.
Well, These kinds of projects can be fun. Good to have help.

Just curious why you would want to switch to 9MM?

Well Tom says he has a 9mm Martz, with rear sights already - I assume its a short frame barrel, I couldn't tell if I was looking at it.
GT says he could probably work it either way.
Eugene says he can make me an exact replica, I just don't want it to cost $2500 and I get it back in 2 years....

Measuring the barrel tenon is the way to tell long or short action requirements.

If one looks at early long framed navy's on Simpsons site, say early 1906's versus later 4" navies on same site.............looking at the frame curvature just in front of the takedown pivot might infer that yours is a long version. Purely conjecture from here, measuring is the absolute way; I am sure G.T. has a depth mic.

The 2mm difference is about a turn and a half on said barrel threading, so if one got a short barrel for a long frame; the shoulder would have to support said modification(set back).

I appreciate seeing the attachment of the forearm hanger, something for me to save off as a piece of knowledge. Also thanks for the general posting of your new acquisition.

The problem is not making the barrel. The problem is re-creating the rear sight.

--Dwight

thanks all - will keep this thread open as we move along.

As an aside, I was trying to decide if i was going to strip the stock - and instead started slow and using dish soap and warm water, it looks remarkably better!

I have sent an email to Lugerdoc telling him I would take the 9mm barrel and sight and would go from there.

The frame is assuredly a long version, it is an original Old Model carbine.

I would appreciate it if someone could authoritatively post the precise barrel threading difference between a short and long receiver.

The forearm hanger is originally only soldered to the front of the frame. The screw attachment on Ed's carbine is an owner modification.

--Dwight

Dwight,
you have a knack for stating the obvious!
Like the Geico commercial says: "everybody knows that".:rolleyes:

Well, yes and no. Production carbines had only a soldered connection of the forearm hanger to the frame, but originally on the very first prototype carbines the hanger actually employed a screw as well as solder to affix it to the frame. :cheers:

I'm not sure what you want to know "precisely" about the threading difference; but there is an long frame old model drawing in Goertz and Sturgess around page 1740 in the red books, and the short chamber drawing is readily available. The length of the barrel that extends into the receiver is 21 mm on the long frame and 19mm on the short frame.

DWM and GL had lots of trouble deciding what thickness springs to use, on both the old and new models!!

See page 222 in the Red Goertz and Sturgess book for more info on the leaf spring "saga".

According to them, the final 9mm springs were 1.15mm and 0.85mm for the Siamesed main and secondary leaf springs.

OK, my 50% was a ballpark number. If you consider the specified +/- 0.02mm tolerance on both measurements, the difference could be as small as 0.075mm [(0.83X1.5) - 1.17 = 0.075], slightly smaller than the diameter of a human hair. So, splitting hairs, I think 50% is close enough. :)

I did not mean it was not about 50%!:eek:
It makes interesting reading for anyone who wants a little more info.

...except that I'm not sure "everybody knows that." It's one thing to bandy about that "making a carbine barrel is easy," and quite another to actually realize that accurately re-creating a carbine barrel might not be so simple. I was posting this for the people reading this who might not have the experience with or particular knowledge about the topic.

And that includes people even like me, for instance--I was not conscious of this particular difficulty until I talked to Tom Heller about this specific topic a couple of years ago.

--Dwight

Touche! I should have said "easy" for someone with the equipment, know how, drawings or example, experience, time, and desire to duplicate a barrel.:)

But Ed was my target, he does not "need" to accpt a 9mm barrel if he does not really want to.

I have the Swiss leaf spring drawing somewhere. Will look it up.

Found it:

Swiss drawing for the 'P00' 1900 model leaf spring.

Thanks much, Vilm.

This one appears to be the "middle" iteration with two leaves of equal thickness, in this case the indicated 0.9mm.

Met the gentleman on-line when he asked for help on it about 2.5 yrs ago - revisited the discussion to buy from him several times, and we just couldn't agree. Then after I moved, I talked to him and we struck a deal and then all the above (see first posting in this thread)

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Almost finished product.

This was a long, but short project. I want to thank Don Voigt for helping me so much, he provided the barrel and much skill. I got the sights from Tom Heller from a 9mm barrel he had, I decided to stick with the original caliber of 7.65mm, and Don tested it with PPU after much labor and putting it together.
Thanks to Ron Wood , Dwight Gruber, Jerry Burney and GT (Gerald Tomeck) for advise, pictures and encouragement.
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Later decision is there whether to send it to Danner and have him reblue it all in the old way, so its not so shiny and all looks alike, then do I want to have Jim re-checker it all for me?
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Specifications
1900 DWM
All matching to include carbine stock
7.65mm Barrel, proper length of a carbine

Compare my Old Model Carbine (AKA 1902 carbine) and my 9mm 16 inch carbine

Ed,
thanks for the kind words. I am proud to have been involved in saving this mistreated old carbine!
I want to add my thanks to all who contributed information, parts, and encouragement during the project, it was a "village" effort for sure.

I vote for a trip to Danner asap for a rust blue finish, it will look great - without the "shine".
At the same time, you can get Jim to refresh the wood checkering, stain, and give it a little finish- you won't believe how good it will look! JMHO. :)

Magical!! REALLY nice and came together much faster than I thought it might! I agree with Don..Get Danner to rust blue it and straw. Get the checkering gone over..You will have a piece to be proud of!
Does it shoot?

I am sitting at my work desk at home and it arrived about 3 hrs ago - so have not shot it, but Don test fired it before barrel conversion and afterwards.

Good Thing You Don't Have Three Arms!

Johns' Carbine~https://www.rockislandauction.com/de...ine-with-stock

"I am sitting at my work desk at home and it arrived about 3 hrs ago - so have not shot it"

Three hours? What are you waiting for? We want to know how it shoots...
Very nice!
dju

Its like your new baby! You will forever remember theses moments!!! She is now a part of your life~ God Bless! I share your feeling~ Ed knows that sacred feeling! Someday I might atttach one of my drums! Eric

Ed wanted/needed the rear sight on the barrel to keep his 1902 carbine correct as made; making the "navy sight" style carbine is much simpler!

I've posted these before:
16" 9mm barrel, and 11.75" 7,65mm barrel , each with it's own receiver making a "zwilliger" carbine( is that even a word?), i.e. twin caliber carbine. ;)
Picture shows the 16" bbl upper installed; I can't find a picture of the finished 11" upper.
Wood checkered and finished by Jim Solomon; rust blue by Charles Danner.
I made the fore arm from scratch, and the stock was a semi-inlet blank I got from Sheepherder- but I don't remember who made it.
:cheers:

Macon Gunstocks -

https://www.shop.macongunstocks.com/...lder-Stock.htm

Wow!!!! Tks