1902 Carbine Stock Attachment Photos...
 

Have been told that there are two (2) variations in the 1902 carbine models; in regards to 1-screw vs. 2-screw stock attachment iron...(think I have this right...).

Would any folks have photos they could post on the LF to highlight these differences ?

In a week or so I will have a chance to see a local collector's 1902 carbine with the 1-screw detail. This gun is in the first 21,xxx series of serial number. If the Owner agrees, I will take a photo or two of this detail and will post it on the LF...

Thanks for your help...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Hi Pete, I do have photos that can show you the difference, but I am away from my photo archive for a few days.

Basically the difference is that the number indicates the total screws that pass through both the stock iron tangs and the wood portion of the stock. I can compare it to the way a buttstock is attached to a Winchester 94 lever action... if you are familiar with those.

I will try to remember to post you a couple of photos showing the difference when I get back to my office next week.

The military type LP-08 stock is normally two screws.

I speculate that the commercial type is only one screw through the ends of the stock iron tangs.

Hello John S.,

I forgot and you forgot...could you still post the photos you mentioned you had...?

Thanks so much !

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Sorry about that Pete... I have several hard drives that float through a single external USB drive case on an as needed basis... the drive with my archive couldn't go online because the case was being used for another drive for some time... but here is a photo comparison of the one-screw vs. two-screw type of stock attachment iron...

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/stockironcomparison.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/stockironcomparison.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

I trust this is helpful...

I have several newbie questions regarding this item.

I know Numrich makes a "clone" of the luger stock, but it is exspensive, and they do not sell the attachment part seperately.

Question 1:
Is a clone attachment available seperately from somewhere else? I would prefer to make my own stock so as to match it to the grips.

Question 2:
Is it BATF legal to take, for example, a modern
stainless luger (or shooter grade luger) and make your own carbine clone?
(assuming the new barrel is long enough for BATF
requirements)

Question 3:
Are there any good pictures around that show the forestock internals? I understand there is a "helper" spring in the forestock to assist in returning the larger barrel into battery but I have never seen this mechanism. I would also be interested in seeing what the forestock mounting lug looks like on the front of the frame.

For Question 3, I hope these pictures help.

The first photo is of the carbine with the forearm removed. You can see the frame extension and the accelerator lug on the bottom of the barrel.
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/CarbFrameFront.jpg

The next photo is two views of the frame extension.
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/CarbExtension.jpg

Here is the forearm in three views. You can see the accelerator assembly in the top view. The lug on the bottom of the barrel contacts the plunger in the accelerator.
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/CarbForearm.jpg

Thanks for posting the great pictures, Ron. I hope you don't mind if I ask a few more questions regarding them.

In the bottom photo, top shot...
The coloration of the top of the accelerator is interesting. Is that color case hardened? It looks like cast lead or something.

It looks to be a "spring plunger tube" cast into a square shape that fits snugly into the inleting of the stock. Is that the plunger exposed at the front?

I suspect that the lug on the barrel is not just soldered on, but that the lug is actually inserted into a square recess in the barrel and then soldered.

There must have been quite a bit of hand fitting to get the stock to fit nicely.

I notice the Martz custom carbines do not not have the wedge. He must have used some other type of fastening method to attach the forestock to the frame extension. Maybe he incorporates it in the swivel.

I just love the gentle flare at the tip of these carbine stocks

Hey Ron, thanks for the great photos... now how about a photo of the top and bottom sides of the key that holds the forearm to the frame extension... that would complete most of the puzzle for most newbies... and me. :D (Don't let the gray hair fool you... I have been reading and studying about these guns for over 40 years and I am still learning...) :)

Last question... where does the extra spring go and what keeps it in place?

Ron, Making an authentic looking and reliably functioning M1902 Carbine will be an expensive and difficult project. Since they were long frame/receiver pistols and I presume that you will be starting with a short frame PO8 (forget the recent copies, as they don't have stock lugs), I'd recommend that you might attempted the simpler M1920 Carbine, without recoil assist in forearm and attaching forearm to frame extention with swivel screw. I do have a few Martz carbine parts in stock that may be of help. TH

Dean,
The coloration of the top of the accelerator is actually the â??peacockâ?� coloration caused by heat-treating or the heat generated by the machining of the accelerator block. Since the part is hidden, no attempt was made to polish it out.

The square "spring plunger tube", or what I call the accelerator block, that is inlet into the stock is a machined part not a casting. The plunger is that bright cylindrical object at the front of the accelerator block.

Both the front sight ramp and the lug on the bottom of the barrel appear to be integral to the barrel and not soldered on. Quite a bit of machining artistry. If they are actually soldered on, it is totally undetectable. The rear sight mount, however, is clearly a separate piece and is silver soldered in place.

John,
The wedge that holds the forearm to the frame extension can only be taken out of the forearm by backing out that little setscrew that is visible in the wood adjacent to the wedge. Since it has been in place for about 100 years now, I am reluctant to try to remove it without good cause (if it ainâ??t broke, donâ??t fool with it). Someday I will attempt to get a few photos of the wedge in different positions while still in the stock, which should give enough information on how it is constructed to provide the information you would like.

The extra spring is behind the plunger that Dean inquired about. It is inside the accelerator block, and is held in place by the plunger, which in turn is pinned to the accelerator block.

Tom,
Thanks for the info, but it is Dean (brokencase) that is considering making a carbine. I am fortunate to have one already, and am not inclined to take on that type of project. I am sure Dean can use your input, and your suggestion about creating a 1920 style carbine without the complex forearm is a good one.

Thanks again Ron... Since I have never taken a forearm off of a carbine... I had no idea that it was a latch rather than a loose piece that clicks into place... that was my guess... that's why I thought taking a photo of it would be an easy task.

We shall wait until someone has a need to open this pandora's box and not take one apart just to satify our curiosity...

thanks for your descriptive education on the Luger carbine forearm.

John,
Your guess is correct, it is a loose piece that clicks into place. However, to preclude its being lost, the setscrew limits the travel of the wedge to just enough to permit disassembly but prevents the wedge from being completely removed from the stock.

FWIW, I did find a source of reproduction stock irons (at least for the artillery stock)

The company's name is CMR International in the UK. They want $60 for it.

Here's a link to thier website:
http://www.btinternet.com/~cmr.international/index.htm

They also offer nice reproduction holsters.

Lugerdoc, Don't underestimate me!

Dean, I look forward to viewing your finished project. I also meant to mention CMR for stock lugs. These have longer tangs than standard, but since you plan to build your own wood to fit the lug, this should not be a problem. TH

brokencase

I see one of your questions went unanswered... the one about using a late model Luger as a basis for a stocked Luger...

Only Luger/Stock combinations that have been specifically exempted by the ATF from the National Firearms Act as Curio & Relics can have a stock legally attached.

You can submit a request to the ATF to "make" a short barreled rifle (SBR) out of a Luger not specifically exempted by submitting the appropriate paperwork and pre-paying a $200 tax. Once the request is approved by ATF, then and only then can you "make" a Luger and a stock into an SBR. Any Luger can be used for this purpose and forever more the pistol has become an SBR and is subject to the full provisions of the National Firearms Act of 1934.

IF you use a barrel of at LEAST 16 inches... then you don't need to go through this process... because the barrel length is long enough so that it doesn't meet the definition of a "short barrel"... but a 16 inch barrel is a lot of steel to move reliably with Luger calibers and probably wouldn't function well... just my opinion.

I trust this has been helpful to keep you on the right side of the law.

Thanks John,

I was pretty certain that if I met the 16 inch barrel length that I would be OK.

I was not aware of the SBR request proccess. That is interesting.

Still a question in my mind is what happens with regard to the FFL database, i.e, the gun is sold to me as a pistol originally, then later I sell it and it is now a carbine..

With regard to the project, still in the research phase.

I am pretty confident I can handle the construction of the forestock, frame extension, accelerator, stock attachment, etc. The barrel is the hurdle.

Marstar in Canada sells a luger 16 in. barrel and forestock for about $200. However they do not list the caliber. I would like 9mm. I would also like it in stainless steel.

I would prefer not cutting a barrel blank. I have a metal lathe and I have contoured barrels previously, but I am not sure it is up to cutting the threads for the luger.

"Luger Tips" mentions that Springfield barrels fit the luger. Though I think the author is just refering to the caliber and not the threading.

I think that the Luger Tips mention of Springfield barrels fitting the Luger refers to the fact that these barrels have enough "meat" on them to turn them to Luger specs... definitely not thread compatible and of course, what would you do with the 30-06 chamber that was inside the threaded portion...

No, M1903 barrels must have just enough .30 caliber barrel to make a useable Luger barrel... As the old-timer gunsmith might tell you... all you have to do is cut away everything that doesn't look like a Luger barrel... :D

If you want a stainless 16 inch tube you will have to make it yourself or have it made... Perhaps Orimar might make you one on special order of one of their firearms and it would come installed so you wouldn't have to worry about receiver wrenches and such... They might even cut the shoulder stock lug for you... who knows.

It doesn't hurt to ask.

The Marstar barrel isn't available in stainless and has a threaded hole in it's underside where the forearm (not of typical Luger design) is attached... not a pretty arrangement... trust me.

The FFL database as you called it is simply the 4473 forms that the dealer keeps filled out on paper... once you have "papered" an SBR, that paperwork would supercede anything prior to that in the weapon's history.

John, Do you know what the caliber of the Marstar 16" barrel is?

The alternative approach of starting with a "shooter grade" luger does look more promising. Use the Marstar barrel but throw away it's forestock.
As LugerDoc stated, start with a shooter with a stock lug.

I will give Orimar a call and see what is possible on that angle. In fact, I think they would do pretty well in offering a 16" carbine model along with that rumoured .45 at the forthcomming Shot Show.

The only 16 inch barrels I have seen are 9mm.

John, My apologies with regards to discussing the construction of a modern carbine in the section of the forums. I will try to keep my further discussion "in topic".

Ron, If your still following this thread,

I am curious if you obtained any other accessories with your 1902 carbine. Case, sling, documentation, etc..

Were there any modification performed by previous owners, or is it all original?

Have you ever shot it? If so, what does it feel like? It must be strange to put ones face so close to the operating toggle action.

We're all probably familiar that Teddy Roosevelt & Churchhill owned one of these guns. But what I find more facinating is that many of these carbines ended up in some of the German colonies of that time period.

The movie "Out of Africa" comes to mind. It's easy to imagine a plantation owner carrying one of these carbines on horseback while patroling the estate. Certainly not a "Big Game" rifle, but the multi-shot capability must have proved useful for warding off pests or taking smaller game.

Must have been an interesting time and place to live. Perhaps if your carbine could talk it could speak of such things.

Dean,
I have no accessories for my carbine. I feel fortunate just to have it! It has no modifications and is in excellent original condition. I have never fired it, and do not intend to.

No problem... I didn't consider your discussion off-topic because you were discussing creating a reproduction of this rare antique firearm...

If a discussion drifts too far out of scope of a particular forum, myself or one of the moderators would just move it to an appropriate forum for the discussion and leave a note where it could be found...

If you do create a reproduction carbine, please remember to post photographs of your progress and the finished product...

Ron, Your a better man than I with respect to not firing the carbine.

I checked with Orimar, "No can do" on the 16in. barrel request. They are busy getting the .45 together for introduction. Mr. Romo (correct spelling of name?) sounds like a very nice gentlemen on the phone. I hope his .45 is a big hit at the show. It will be interesting to see any reviews in the magazines. Can't wait to see what the trigger will look like.

The good news is that I've found a source that sells 9mm barrel blanks in stainless steel, 1 in 10 twist. I now have to see if I can configure my lathe for threading.

My lathe is a very old Atlas model with many gears that have to be manually setup. I'm going to practice on some scrap material to see what the results are like before I decide to do this myself or send it out.

I know this all sounds crazy, i.e, "This guy has never threaded on a lathe before, and now he's going to try to thread a barrel?"

But I'm actually very good with this machine and have been using it for many years. I've never really had the need to thread with it, as threaded bar stock is commonly availible.

If I have the original Orimar barrel in hand, and the machine is up to par,then I am confident I will be able to duplicate the threaded portion on the new blank. Besides, the barrel blank is 26 inches long. If I make a mistake, I can cut off that section and try again.

I'm not a lunatic, if I can't "get it" then I have enough sense to send the job out to someone who can do the job right.

But would'nt it be a surprize if it turned out easy?

Time to head over to Brownells and see what a 9mm chamber reamer costs.

Greeat discussion, thanks Ron and Dean and John!

:)

Ed

I have posted the original blueprint of the barrel shank previously... just do a search for it... I am not in the office till late this afternoon so I can't link it for you...

Threading is fun, but you will definitely need to practice on some cylindrical stock before trying it on a barrel that you paid good money for... but you will be well pleased with the result once you get the hang of it. You will also have to grind yourself a special bit or two for the 55 degree Whitworth threads, but that is half the fun... I used to just take a 60 degree tool and cut it back 2.5 degrees on each side using my calibrated eyeball and never had a problem...

Good Luck.

Hi Rick, Saw your earlier post regarding barrel fabrication in another part of the forum. Very interesting.

Just a reminder, I am going for a 16 in barrel length. So this is not a true copy of the carbine.

Picked up signed FFl today. Gun should be here soon.

John, you mentioned trouble cycling a 16in barrel. Is a softer recoil spring an option?
How are others dealing with this?

I am now of the opinion that I should start with one of the pre-contoured barrel blanks.

Rick, Here is my first draft of the operation:

1) Install pre-contoured barrel blank (muzzle first) through the chuck, to the point where the chuck jaws can purchase on the flat portion of the breech end of the blank. This portion is about 2.5-3.0 inches depending on barrel manufacturer.

2) Machine breech end to rough outer dimensions of threaded area. The region of threaded area is purposefully made longer than required as the breech face will be trimmed later.

3) Reconfigure Atlas for 20 tpi threading Install properly ground threading tool.
Do some test threads on some scrap bar stock
to ensure tool is secured and aligned.

4) Cut threads on barrel. Feed towards chuck. Be fast on the feed switch to stop threads just short of the flange Threads are cut in several passes. As I get close, I test fit onto the Luger upper reciever. I want a tight fit.(fitment of threads is compared to original barrel at this point). Cut threads too deep? Barrel is trashed.

5) Reconfigure Atlas for machining. Trim breech face to proper profile. The length of the threaded portion is now very close to that of the original barrel.

Note: I'm making some educated guesses regarding the next few steps.

5) Study face of flange on original barrel. John's blueprint shows a compression backcut for normal ordinance steel (.1mm x.6mm). My barrel and action are stainless and this back cut may be different in this case, as the interference fit might be different for this material. Cut the face of the flange square.

6) Thread original barrel back onto the reciever, until the flage contacts the reciever Note the offset of the alignment marks. Also note position of extractor cut-out and feed reed ramp.

7) Thread new barrel onto reciever as above. Mark my new alignment mark at the same offset that the original barrel has. Index and mark extractor and feedramp cutouts.

8) Remove barrel, cut extracter and feed ramp
(method to be determined)

9) If required, the face of the flange can be trimed such that the new barrel "lines up" like the old barrel with regard to the alignment mark. Once this is correct, the proper back cut is made on the face of the flange. The breech face must also be cut so we have the same distance from the flange face to the breech face as the original barrel

10) Remove barrel and flip it around. Set up live center on tailstock. Cut and blend contour as desired. Belt sand, polish.

11) Cut muzzle of barrel to final length

12) Chamber Barrel. Mic distance from the breech face to the chamber ridge on original barrel. Cut chamber in new barrel with reamer, mic often to check distance of ridge as we progress with the reamer.

13) Install front and rear sights (method to be determined)

14) Install "accelerator" lug on bottom of barrel (method to be determined).

Install barrel:

1) Chill barrel in freezer. Heat upper reciever in oven (temperature to be determined, check metallurgy book).

2) With leather gloves, quickly mount barrel in chuck of vise (with clam shell halves).

3) Mount action in wrench, tighten until index marks align.

Sound good?

Hello John S.,

Sorry for this delay...but thanks for posting the photos of the two variations in the 1902 carbine stock lug attaching irons. Looks like the 1st. variation did not have enough "bite" into the wood and may have proven fragile...thus the longer and more penetrating 2nd. variation...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Rick, thanks for your insight. I will use care in regards to the headspacing. I was looking at the guages at Brownells.

Good news, I have all the gears to set up 20tpi. I opened the gear door on the lathe today and the gear data plate was unreadable.
Fortunatly, this fellows website has the "sacred scrolls" preserved:
http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/t/...tlas_Lathe.htm

I have some thick brass stock to make the action wrench. I will probaly band saw this and file to shape and drill it for two cap head bolts & screws.

I was looking at Martz carbine #1 in "Luger Tips". Seems he took it easy in his first incarnation. He simply "stretched" the original profile of the luger barrel. The orignal rear Navy model sights were used. His forestock is different. There is no visible key through the stock. Also, the "schnaub" on the front is carved differently. It's not really like a 1902 carbine at all.

I believe on the 1902 carbine, the original rear sight is present on the rear of the gun but is not utilized. The front and rear sight on the barrel are set higher.

I think I can manage the rear sleeved sight.

The front sight is problematic. I can't solder to stainless. I want a light weight barrel, hence the barrel wall thickness will only be about 0.1" thick at the muzzle. I don't think this will be enough to mill a dove tail. Perhaps I should start with a thicker blank, and then contour the fat cylinder at the muzzle like the standard luger barrel. I could then dovetail a front ramp sight into this section.

Alternatively, I could make a pressed on sleeve that has the front sight and ramp attached to it.

Decisions....decisions...

Wow!, I just noticed the stainless carbine "previously posted" picture, It looks like whoever made that one used the "sleeve method" to mount the front sight.

I wonder if that is a stainless stock iron that they made themselves. It does not seem to have a latch.

Do we know who the forum member is that made this carbine? I would like to talk to them.

I sure hope they were able to checker the wooden bits. A luger without checkering just does'nt cut it for me.

Here is the original discussion about the Stainless Carbine . And here is the second discussion .

--Dwight

I was thinking I could pin the accelerator lug. Drill two holes at a 45 degree angles through the lug (one towards the front and one towards the rear). The holes continue into the barral to a shallow depth. Pins are then driven in. This would be a permament fixment. Bottom threading tiny screw holes in stainless is a "Bad thing". I've broken too many tiny taps.

I believe the barrel wall thickness will be about .1725 at the point where the lug goes

Unless you really want to add an accelerator, it really isn't needed with a new model coil mainspring. The accelerator helped the laminiated leaf spring of the old model get everything back into battery. You can accomplish the same thing in a new model with a stouter coil mainspring. That is how the 1920 carbine did away with the accelerator. Regardless, in either case a hotter round is required to cause that much reciprocating metal to function properly.

Thanks Ron, You just saved me alot of headache.

However, Ignoring the "return to battery" problem, If the mass of the new barrel is at issue would not a ligher recoil spring be in order?

I think the "return to battery" problem comes about because the weight of the barrel causes a torque on the frame rails, thus adding extra friction to the motion.

I can think of a few ways to deal with this. Good lubrication, hone the frame rails, smooth the action up.

It's might be possible to add a lightly spring loaded roller in the forearm to push up on the bottom of the barrel and ease the torque on the rails. Granted, we no longer have a "full floating" barrel, but if it means that we can now have a carbine that is able to shoot regular ammo without cycling issue then it might be worth the small loss in accuracy.

I believe the above items can be addressed after the carbine is completed. Only after test firing the gun will I be able to evaluate these issues. To play it safe, I will install Wollfe's heaviest recoil spring and, if required, move to a lighter spring.

I think the problem of barrel mass and recoil spring must be solved after assembly by experimenting with appropriate springs and honing the resistance to work with a specific cartridge load.

I've been looking over some of the BATF regulations, specifically, the following definition of a Short barreled rifle:

"Short-barreled rifle. A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length, and any weapon made from a rifle, whether by
alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches."

I guess what I want to ask is: If I install a 16 inch barrel on a modern Orimar frame, can I still have a detachable stock?

The reason I ask is that the previously posted stainless carbine pictured above displays no latch on it's stock iron. Is this stock non-detachable so as to ensure a minimum 26 inch overall length?

Nevermind, I found the answer here:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#m25

"If a person has a pistol and an attachable
shoulder stock, does this constitute possession of an NFA firearm?"

"Yes, unless the barrel of the pistol is at least 16 inches in length (and the overall length of the firearm with stock attached is at least 26 inches). However, certain stocked handguns, such as original semiautomatic Mauser "Broomhandles" and Lugers, have been removed from the purview of the NFA as collectors' items. [27 CFR 179.11]

Status 10/21/03
Quick change gearbox and new back gears purchased for my old tired Atlas. They get installed next weekend.

Ordered catalog from CMR.

Ordered chamber reamer & headspace guages from Brownells.

That will certainly breathe new life into that old lathe... and maybe you too Dean :)

You can practice on pieces of old rifle barrel till you get it right...then slap a 16.25" piece of decent 9MM barrel between those centers and let the chips fly... <img border="0" alt="[icon501]" title="" src="graemlins/icon501.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> ...just rambling from an old gunsmith who wishes he hadn't sold his old lathe.... GOOD LUCK!

Status 11/07/03. New back gears are installed. Ebay purchased quick change gearbox needs some repairs. I am upset the seller did not mention the defects, but these units are hard to come by that I figure I can fix it faster than I could locate another.

Status 12/21/03:

The last few weekends were spent getting the lathe up to par.

Gearbox is now functional. I purchased a milling attachment for the lathe, as well as a "Deloris" style tool post (a China clone from Harbor Frieght). I had to mill the surface of the turret to allow clearance for the new toolpost to rotate.

I custom ground a carbide threading tool and I can now perform quality 20TPI threading on stainless barstock.

Using the milling attachment, I have begun shaping the action wrench blocks out of 1/2 brass. I think I'm ready to order the barrel very soon.

I have decided to follow the methods outlined in the book "The Modern Gunsmith" with regard to barrel machining. I will be turning the barrel "between centers" using carefully machined barrel plugs to ride on the centers of the lathe.

I have decided to solder the frame extension to the foward reciever & trigger guard. I have found an outfit that sells 416 stainless steel in various small sizes that I will use for the extension and for making the rear sight.

Pictures soon to follow...