Clark Our Own~
 

Our own Test History~http://testluger.com/?page_id=2

Another Section! http://testluger.com/?p=40

Next~ http://testluger.com/?p=40

1913 Bannerman Catalog ~ http://www.landofborchardt.com/1913fb_catalog.html#

We certainly have the most awesome friends and well meaning critics~ Eric~

From his Wordpress site, it's clear that Clark has spent a fair amount of time researching original documents relating to the US Test Lugers in US archives.

When discussing the history of Lugers there is nothing like the original documents to settle disagreement over the actual facts.

This US Test site is a wonderful resource.

Marc

Yes. It shows the two .45 Lugers; one with the 60º grip and the other with the 55º grip. I remember seeing a thread comparing them, but I don't recall why there were two different gripframe angles. Were they two different orders??? It mentions officers testing them...Testing together? Or different times/orders??? :confused:

I guess I'll actually have to get up off my fat ass and read the articles. :mad:

As far as we know there was only one .45 Luger produced with the 55-degree grip angle and it was the one actually used in the test and probably destroyed or discarded after the test. The two known surviving examples with the 60-degree grip angle, most likely were made to more closely resemble grip angle of the Colt and other .45 trial entrants and probably were created in anticipation of a follow-on test or purchase contract. They were not part of the test and probably weren't presented until well after the test...some folks have postulated as late as 1910, but I would think it would have been only a few months after the test perhaps as early as late 1097 - early 1908.
Ron

Thanks, Ron! :thumbup:

Knowing that it was you, I found the thread it was in - Some guy even measured the grip angle of the Riger .22 auto. :rolleyes:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=21855

BTW: Clark's [username = Hugo Borchardt] original post announcing this website was -

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=34620

Anyone know the grip angle of a P08, a Ruger .22, and a Japanese Nambu?
dju

David,
If you follow the link that Richard (sheepherder) posted you will see that the P08 (e.g. "all other Lugers") is stated to be 55 degrees and Richard posted an illustration of the Ruger ("Riger" :)) as being 60 degrees. I have no idea about a Nambu.
Ron

Oh, please! You old fudds think admitting owning a Nambu is like coming out of the closet! :mad:

Measuring my T14, I get 65º off the front gripstrap. :thumbup:

Someone put the grip angle of the 1911 Govt. Model for completeness, please.

Someone put the grip angle of the 1911 Govt. Model for completeness, please.

I agree, but we should draw the line at Glocks...
dju

Both the Model 1911 and the Government Model used the same forging and hence both models had the same grip angle.

I have found reference to two numbers: 74 and 75 degrees as Browning had found the 55 degrees of the Luger too extreme,

The 74 or 75 degrees was a compromise as field testing indicated that the 84 degrees of the Model 1909 test prototype caused the impact point to drift lower under rapid fire conditions so in the Model 1910 and the Model 1911 production series, the angle was set at 74/75 degrees..

John

That's interesting, thank you John.
Norm

Hmmmm,...Lessee...Yep, I get 74º on a Colt Gov't Model frame...(Measured on the front gripstrap)... :)

Thanks to John for pointing that out! :thumbup:

Edit: Angle orientation corrected! :p

If I am understanding the 1911 photo, it would appear that the 74 degrees is actually greater than 90 degrees.

Richard,
Not wishing to be picky, but your frame to grip strap obtuse angle should be over 90 degrees. Perhaps the 74 degrees is an acute angle on the flip side of the grip strap line.
Have a very Happy New Year.

You are both correct; I could not find a right-hand pic online with a white background. The angle is correct (for my Gov't Model) just on the wrong side. It's now corrected. :)

BTW: FWIW, the pic I had up originally, of an after-market frame being milled, only measured 72 1/2º. I had another one lying nearby; that one was also 72 1/2º. Only my Colt actually measured 74º. The 1928 blueprint I go by did not have a direct degree measurement. I had the Colt broken down for comparison. The print seems genuine, but some of the measurements are very strange. Like, just what fraction in inch or Metric is .110"??? And why would anyone bore a hole 29/64"??? :rolleyes:

After the successful testing of the Colt Model 1909, John Browning designed the .45 Caliber Prototype 1910. This prototype was a result of complementary praise by the Ordnance Board of the Luger anatomical features. This prototype has a slant grip for more natural grip and natural point. Browning demonstrated and tested the .45 Caliber Prototype 1910 at Fort Meyer in February of 1910. This prototype was the predecessor of the Colt Model 1911 Government Model.

[QUOTE=sheepherder;311981]Hmmmm,...Lessee...Yep, I get 74º on a Colt Gov't Model frame...(Measured on the front gripstrap)... :)

Thanks to John for pointing that out! :thumbup:


FWIK the 1911 grip angle should be 118 degrees.

[QUOTE=luger.parabellum;312009]It depends on which side of the angle you measure. The 118 +/- degrees is the compliment of 74 +/- degrees. Added together they make 180 degrees, i.e. the straight horizontal line that the grip angle is measured from...118 degrees on the trigger guard side, 74 degrees on the grip side.
Ron

You got your quote screwed up. I'm sheepherder; he's luger.parabellum. :rolleyes:

Here's some food for thought...Pic of blueprint attached...

90º minus 17º 30' = 72º 30'...(72 1/2 degrees)...

Yeah Richard, I messed up when I omitted parts of his post but didn't go far enough to eliminate the reference to your alias...I apologize for the apparent misquote.
Your food for thought is indeed interesting. Odd that the blueprint spec matches your aftermarket frame but not the original Colt frame.
Ron

Ron, I have several copies/sets of 1911 blueprints, from Dept of the Army Rock Island Arsenal, Dept of the Army Springfield Arsenal, and from US Armament Research & Development Command, Dover New Jersey. They have mixed dates on the prints within the sets, some are marked revisions, some not. There's 1928 dates, 1936, even a 1960. I stopped checking. :rolleyes:

In addition, I imagine Colt made numerous changes to their Government Model over the years. The grip angle may have been one of them. :confused:

[QUOTE=Ron Wood;312014]Of course 118 degrees is measured at the trigger guard side.