French Luger???
 

Can anyone verify for me the history of a "french" luger???

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/06french.htm

I am seeing some strange luger variants on this website and was wanting another opinion...

Thanks

John

John,

IMHO, the side plate does not look quite right. Color seems off...

C. Kenyon in his 2nd. book on page 114 speculates this barrel marking was "likely a marketing tool, targeted at the French retailer...".

Also...take a look at the two photos, below. Photo # 2 shows a "halo" around the barrel marking while Photo # 1 does not.

Photo # 1 (the PIA luger for sale) :

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...hbarrelpia.jpg

Photo # 2 (a French luger displayed by member "HistoryBuffGuy" in August in the P08 Military section this past summer) :

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...orybuffguy.jpg

QUESTION : Which one is "right"...? (I do not think both can be right...)

Regards,

Pete... http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/thinking.gif

John,
as far as I know the Lugers made by DWM for the French commercial market have a "fleur de lys" stamp on the chamber. This stamp was typical of the Saint-Etienne city, well known in French for the gun industries. The pistol shown doesn't have this stamp.
I am not so expert in this luger variation so I stop here my consideration.
I hope this helps.
Ciao

I am usually kind of critical of this guy's Lugers, but my gut feel is this one is legitimate. If you look close, you can see the evidence of a halo around the leading letter "M". The resolution of the photo doesn't reveal much about the rest of the inscription. I know that white in the letters helps to read the inscription, but I would much prefer a closeup of un-filled letters. Laquer-stik sometimes covers a multitude of sins.
Actually, the "fleur de lis" marking is rather rare, I think only one or two examples are known. The majority of the barrel marked French have blank chambers.

Thank you Ron for this info. Actually I thought that the "fleur de lys" was stamped in all "French" Luger.
Happy new year.
Ciao
Mauro

Mauro, Most experts believe the fleur de lys marked chambers to be spurious. TH

Thank you Tom.
The only fleur de lys I have seen are published on the book. I remember a very nice picture in the Kenyon's book "Luger The Multinational Pistol".
Have a good holidays and Happy 2004.
Ciao

To add a note to Ron's previous post regarding the French Lugers with the "fleur de lis" on the chamber, I believe that this very rare (1902) model exists in the 25,000 or 28,000 serial range.

Albert

Have any folks here on the LF had a chance to see the "Fleur de Lis" pistol in person...?

From the one photo on page 114 of C. Kenyon's 2nd. book, it looks as though bluing was applied on a "spot basis" once the chamber engraving was made. But maybe what I am seeing is just an effect of the photography...

Regards,

Pete... http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...king_copy2.gif

Pete,

I have never examined a 'Fleur de Lis' French Luger, but I have examined three 1906 French Commercial Lugers during a visit to a collector's home in France. It is hard to believe that possibly one FDL Luger exists when I would have imagined that there should be a few more in existence, especially in France. Hopefully, a genuine FDL Luger will surface in the future which would provide more information regarding this very rare model.

Best wishes,
Albert

First things first, I'm a longtime reader first time poster. Now back to the topic...

You can back off this one Pete, Iâ??m pretty sure that was my Uncleâ??s French Luger. A bearded guy from NC who was across the table from me in a poker game in Myrtle Beach SC made my stake for the gun when I was down in a poker game. I didnâ??t understand at that time why he was asking me about the box.
I do now.

James, can you give us more information? I only ask because every now and then we get a "troll" {no offense to you} and they state something as fact, and it is "bogus" info?

Why do you think it was your uncles? do you now the serial number?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">A bearded guy from NC who was across the table from me in a poker game in Myrtle Beach SC made my stake for the gun when I was down in a poker game. I didnâ??t understand at that time why he was asking me about the box.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">So, did you lose the gun then?

What about a box?

More info James?

Ed

Hello James,

Could you clarify which French luger you are commenting on...?

Is it the French luger that is for sale on the Phoenix Investment Arms web site or is it the "Fleur de Lis" pistol in C. Kenyon's 2nd. book ? This this thread discussion branched out a bit and discussed different lugers, I am not sure which one you are discussing...

Thanks,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />

Hello Albert,

Would you mind listing the serial numbers of the other French lugers you had a chance to see during your travels ?

The following are the numbers I am aware :

1. # 51554, shown in C. Kenyon's first book on page 106-107...fully cased with accessories.

2. # 54410, shown here on the Luger Forum by member "HistoryBuffGuy" earlier this summer in the Military P-08 section. A $ 500 find in a flea market.

3. # 51872, currently on Ralph Shattuck's WOL List # 243, stock # 1148 with an asking price of $ 8,500.00 (no photos posted...).

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

If you want to see photos of #51872, follow the link in the first post that started this topic (for $1000 less by the way).

Ron,

You are right...how the heck did I miss that...?

Looks like we have Phoenix east and Phoenix west...usually the pricing differential is in the other direction...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Pete, you are correct. I feel that there is a link between Phoenix and a fellow I know in NC. I also suspect a connection to another in Arizona. That would make this an axis of luger pedddlars dealing from a single sack of lugers. Very curious.

Hello Pete,

I have recorded (but not examined) the serial numbers of three 1906 French Commercial Lugers in Europe which are: #45425; #47601; #51537.

There are two other Lugers in Europe which I have examined, but I did not have the opportunity to record the serial numbers.

I did examine a few years ago another pistol in the US which was #69030, but I cannot confirm if it was genuine or not.

Based on the serial number range of these Lugers, it appears that these Lugers were spread over 5,000-10,000 numbers and obviously not sequential. When an order was received, DWM would probably take a M1906 pistol off the rack and ship it to the retailer in France who would then mark it and provide any additional accessories such as a case

Cheers,
Albert

Hello,

I�´m Alberto (a new member from Spain). I recently bought a luger, and now, I think it could be a French Luger.

When I bought it, we didn�´t know anything about french (early) lugers, and I bought it as a almost-new postwar gun. Furthermore, it seems not to have been shooten (I�´m a shooter at Federacion Madrile�±a de Tiro Olimpico)...

It�´s a DWM 9mm luger with the next marks (sorry, I don�´t have any photo):

Serial number: 46058
Barrel markings:
on top: "Manufacture Francaise d�´Armes & Cycles de Saint Etienne"
below: B U G , 118,35

on receiver and toggle assembly: B U

I haven�´t seen any "fleur de lis".

I hope this information can help you.
Where could I get any additional information about my gun?

Thank you very much.

Regards,

Alberto

albertomanuel10

Welcome to the Lugerforum.

Your gun is quite rare... If you visit this link:

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/06french.htm

Which also appears in the first message in this thread you will see many photographs of a similar French Luger.

This dealer is offering this Luger for $7500.00 USD. While I have reference for the true value of this type of Luger other than this dealer, I would not shoot yours or sell it.

Please try to have good digital photographs of your Luger made so we can post them here on the forum. If you need help to do this, just ask.

Congratulations on your purchase of what appears to be a rare and valuable Luger.

THIS IS ERIC, AKA SNOOKEM13@AOL.COM, I AM PURCHASING THE 1906 FRENCH LUGER FROM TOM AT PHOENIX AND JAN STILLS SAID I COULD TRUST TOM AND JOE, THEY HAVE BY FAR, ONE OF THE BEST LUGER SITES AND HAVE SEVERAL RARE LUGERS, THEY ARE SELLING MY TWO 192O COMMERCIALS TO DEFRAY MY PURCHASE ON THE FRENCH BEAUTY, EMAIL ME OR CHECK OUT "PHOENIXINVESTMENTARMS.COM" ERIC BRUNING, ESQ, PORT ST. LUCIE, FLORIDA

THIS IS ERIC AKA SNOOKEM13@AOL.COM, THE FUTURE PURCHASER OF THE 1906 FRENCH LUGER, I WAS INCORRECT AS TO MY COMMENT REGGARDING, JAN STILLS AND THE 1906, IT WAS INSTEAD, RALPH SHADDAK, WHO TOLD ME TO GO AND TRUST JOE AND TOM AT "PHOENIXINVESTMARTARMS.COM, ALTHOUGH JAN PROBOBLY AGREES TOO, SORRY I HAD A STROKE AND COMA 2 YEARS AGO IN COSTA RICA, AND STILL EXPERIENCE AN OCCASIONAL "BRAIN FART" FROM TIME TO TIME, CHECK OUT "COMARECOVERY.COM" LOOK UP "COMA WAKE UP CALLS", MY COMA RECOVERY SAGA, AND I WISH YOU ALL THE BEST AND REMEMBER, A SMILE IS MORE POWERFUL THAN A BULLET, ERIC,esq.

Hello alls
I just indicate that on the bottom of the frame there is a "french" number stamped :Manufacture Fran�§aise code
N�°45425 in 30 :2209
N�°47601 in 9mm:115 http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/fr_1906_int.jpg
Regards Pat

Hi,

Although I haven't found other sources, the reason for the French Parabellum appears to be a legal matter.

DWM mentioned in their corporate history that they set up a French company, producing ball-bearings. These ball-bearings were an important on-the-side business for them. An interesting bit of info was that DWM's main reason for setting up a French production line was patent rights:

French law in those days only allowed registration and protection of patents for designs that were made in France.

It's not very difficult to think that the creation of the 'French Parabellum' via Manufuracture D'armes es Cycles was just a simple and effective way to register and protect the Parabellum design in France.

Why they chose this particular French firm is not known to me. It would have made more sense for them to use their own French ball-bearing company as 'creator' of the French Parabellum. I'm confident that this 'Manufacture D'armes et Cycles' was one of DWM's customers, purchasing ball-bearings and cycle parts (also produced on the side by DWM).

It would be nice to find a French local who can verify this strange French patent law.

HI, THIS IS ERIC BRUNING, THE RETIRED AND TWISTED FORMER/COMA CLOSE CALL ATTY IND PSL, FLA., I SPENT 2 SUMMERS LIVING IN BAYONNE FRANCE WITH A BASQUE FAMILY "BRUNO DUCLOS" I CORRUPTED THAT WHOLE TOWN IN 1979,ANYWAY BRUNO"S FATHER HAD A OMINIOUS LUGER HIDDEN, NEXT TO HIS WINE, IF ANYBODY WHO READS THIS CAN LOCATE MY OLD "FRENCH/BASQUE" BUDDY, I WOULD BE MOST GRATEFUL,HIS MOTHER WORKED IN THE TOWN POST OFFICE. DOES ANYBODY HAVE THE 1906 CASE OR MANUAL??? ERIC 772-336-5312, I STILL DO FREE WILLS FOR FRIENDS

French # 51872
 

French luger # 51872 for sale again...(...or still...?). I do not know who the A-A seller is...

This one was previously listed for sale with Shattuck/Etwoski at WOL/PIA...see postings, above.

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temnum=6737354

Photos from A-A :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/french_51872_1.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/french_51872_2.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/french_51872_3.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/french_51872_4.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/french_51872_5.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/french_51872_6.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/french_51872_7.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/french_51872_8.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/french_51872_9.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...h_51872_10.jpg

In the city of Saint Etienne there was two weapons plants
-The MAS (Manufacture d'Armes de St. Etienne) was a State Plant wh�¨re was made military guns:rifles-MAS 36,MAS 49 and 49/56, and more recent the FAMAS actual french army rifles in 5,56 mmcal.revolvers:Mod.73(cal 11mm),Mod.92(cal8mm) pistols:MAS 35S(cal 7,65mmLong),MAS 5O(cal.9mm para) and MAS G1(cal 9mmpara)acopy of Beretta 92FS
-MANUFRANCE(Manufacture d'Armes et de Cycles de St.Etienne)was a commercial Pland wh�¨re was made rifles and pistols "Le Fran�§ais" cal. 6,35mm, 7,65mm and 9mm Browning Long. This company sells also many other pistols for the civil market before WW1 and between WW1 and WW2 like Borwning mod.19OO(7,65 Br.), Walther, Mause C96 (7,63mm Parabellum(7,65mm and 9 mm) and used to inscribe on the barrel"Manufacture d'Armes et de Cycles de Saint Etienne"but the weapons were not made in France.The parabellum was made by DWM.
This company was closed 25 years ago. The only PO8 made by French in occupied Germany was made in 1945 and 46;it has Mauser marks byf, has a star inscribe on the frame and is phosphated.Many P38 have the same history,finish and the star. They were in use in the French Army and Gendarmerie many years until the MAS 5O appears. Sorry for my bad english. Bests regards from Corsica. Andr�© ROLLAND

Andr�© Rolland,

Bonjour...

Welcome to the Lugerforum, and thank you for the history lesson. I believe that you are our only member who lives in Corsica.

Do the same gun laws apply to Corsica as apply in France on the mainland?

I know that gun laws on UK territorial islands are not as restrictive as they are in Great Britain...

It is not necessary to apologize for your English... There are not that many of us who could communicate with you in French... We welcome your input.

Hi John,I think that I'm the only Corsican on this forum.The same gun law is applied in Corsica and on the mainland:the difference is that the law in general and especially gun law is very difficult to be respected h�¨re ;any man have many guns!! The Island (26OOOO people) knaws big problems with local terrorism;each year,since 1975, between 3OO to 6OO bombing destructions are made by differents terrorists groups(political or racket) and also many homicides (35 to 60 by year). These problems in facts are the result of the determination of 1/4 of the local population to impose at the French State the independance of Corsica.In spite of this situation the live in this Island is very pleasant with a sunny weather.We have many shooting ranges and we practice especially handgun shooting. If you have to come in France don't believe to flight for Corsica(less than 2 hours flight between Paris and Ajaccio birth place of Napol�©on! You Welcome. Andr�©

HI ERIC BRUNING, ESQ, I OWN THE 1906 FRENCH'ARMES LUGER SERIAL #51872, WHAT IS CONFUSING UNTIL I ASKED MY ONLY FRIEND, IS RALPH, FIRST OFF, SEEING THING FROM A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE, IS THAT JUST WALKING IN TO A SHOW, MY 'FRENCHY' IS BAR FAR THE GREATEST LITMUS TEST, REMEMBER, I PICKED JURYS, FOR OVER 25 YEARS, WHEN THEY ASK, FIRSTHOW MUCH YOU ASKIN? ITS PROBOLY, THE SAME WAY, THEY BOUGHT THEIR WFE, EVERY ONE WHO, ASK, 'HOW MUCH, INSTEAD OF ASKING THE DEALER, 'WOULD YOU PLEASE HAVE A MOMENT TO DISLAY THE ARTIFACT,LUGERS THISS RARE,ARE PURCHASED WITH DIFFENT QUESTIONS,HERE AN EXAPLE OF 'WHAT SAID,' OH MY UNCLE SAY ONE IN GUNBROKER, AND THERES LOOKED BETTER, OR CHEEPER, IGNORE HIM, MY FIRST SHOWING OF FRECHY, WAS IN PALM BEACH, AS IN ALL SHOWS, THERES ONE GROUP/COUTERIE OF A "NAZI TABLE" WHICH SAID BEFORE ASKING, THE GRIPS ARE WRONG, BEING A NEOPHYTE, I ASKED RALPH, HE WARNED ME,'HOW MANY SUNBATHERS, HAD EVER FELT OR SAW THE WORKMENSHIP IN THE WOOD ALONE/ I CAN ONY USE ONE FINGER, TO TYPE MY MESSAGE, BUT I WAS REMINDED, WHILE COMING FROM MY PROTECTIVE HEALING STANCE, THAT USE WHAT YOU ALWAYS HAD, BUT NEVER RELIED, I,E THE POWER OF ONE FIGER, TO TYPE, START ONE WAR, OR END ANOTHER, EMAIL ERIC AT 'SNOOKEM13@AOL, ILL SEND PICS ETC 772-336-5312 IM TOO TIRED FOR SPELL CHECK, I JUST HAD RT ROTTATOR SURGERY, GOD BLESS OUR UNION

ERIC HERE, TYPICAL EXESQ, IM OWED BY YOUR INSIGT, I LL READ YOUR ENTIRE WORK TONIGHT, IM STILL TRING TO FIND OUT WHERE THE FRECH IN HERROTINS BOOK EXISTED, MAYBE 2 VARIATION, W/WO BURST, TKS AGAIN, ED AND ALL YOU FOLKS ARE THE BEST, NOT YELLING, AND REINSTTING, AS RALPH, MY PRIDE, AS TEARS DRIP

bonjour messer cosica, je achete le 1906 pictured above, are you aware the presence of 'charge' both on the 1906 and 1903, et jai livere messurs herotins book avec un picture or drawing of the 'sunburst' i dont parle' francais, but as courtesie and a stepchild par vitre, its a pleasure hearingg from you,great minds seek truth, un queste , jamais complet s.v.p. email mess-up ERIC BRUNING,772-336-5312 OF SNOOKEM13@AOL.COM, FOR THE 1903 WITH APPROVAL

Eric,
I am not sure if I am interpreting your question correctly. To the best of my knowledge, only the 1903 French transitional Luger and one solitary example of a 1906 Commercial Luger with a fleur-de-lis chamber marking have the CHARGÃ?? marked extractors. I believe that the 1906 model Lugers with the 'Manufacture Francais d'Armes & Cycles de Saint-Etienne' barrel marking were standard Commercial models with a GELADEN marked extractor. The barrel markings were applied in France by the importer/distributer and not at the factory.

Hi,

I recently purchased a 1907-1908 Manufacture Francaise sales brochure with about 600 pages of firearms, ammunition and accessories. It seems MF was big enough to order 'brand labeled' firearms from just about any supplier, including DWM.

Fascinatingly the 1907-1908 brochure does NOT list the Parabellum, nor the standard Parabellum rounds (9mm and .30 luger). They do appear in the 1910 MF catalog, so introduction was somewhere between 1908 and 1910.

That "import mark" on the barrels makes them valueless as collector items right Ron? :D

Man, you had me going there for a second...until I saw the "evil grin" at the end of the sentence!

HI ERIC, ESQ SURVIVING ANOTHERSTORM, HAVING LIVED THOUGH A STOKE, COMA,AND MOST, THE INSIGHT IVE DERIVED, PRACING TRIAL LAW BEFORE MY STOKE, I OWN MON FRACIAS 'REAL AS ARE THE OTHERS, IF YOU NOTICE THE FEW OWNER KNOW THE FEEL, THE GRIP AND THE MARKING, SR #51872 BUT EVEYONE IS MISSING PART OF THE HISTORY, THE 1906 FRENY, HAD A FATHER, THE 1903 PROTYPE, EVERY SHOULD NOTICE, NOT THE BARREL, BUT THE FRENCH WARNING, INSCRIBED ON EJECTOR, DE SEULMENT ONLY 2 VARITIES, THE FRENCH WORD FOR FIREABLE, 'CHARGE' ET I ASKED MY FRENH JOLIE, DOMONIQUE, 'WHY NOW AND SO FEW, COMMN SENCE, FIRSTT THE 2 MODELS THE 03 AND 06 WERE CIRCULATED TO A FEW FRECH GOVT OFFICIALS, SIMULAR TO THE EARLIER EAGLE, AND THOSE FEW WERE LOST CONVERTED OR HIDDEN IN SOME BASEMENT, YOU THING OLD HINEY HEAD, WOULD HAVE ALLOWED THE FRENCH TO OWN ONME OF THE FATHLANDS, THAT WHAT IVE LEARNED, BASIC, WHY BECAUE THE ONLY OTHER THAT IM AWAREIS THE 'ABERCHOMBIE' DISGUSE TOO FROM GERMAN DESENT, DROP A LINE ILL EMAIL BACK PLENTY OF PROOF, NOW PICKUP 'THE RED BOOK, CHECK BOTH LISTING FOR THE 03 & 06'CHARGE"

THANK RON, FOR MEDIATING, THIS DISSENTION, I LIKE THOSE WHO HAVE OWED THE FEW, SOFAR TO APPEAR, MUST CLOSLY EXAMINE THE GRIP, YOU KNOW THE TOUCHE' BECAUSE YOU HELD THE BEST, GOD BLESS ALL

RON, HOW DO YOU HAVE BEST PICTURES OF MY "FRENCHY" I WANT TO SET ONE THING STAIGHT,TOM AND ED, KNOW PROBLY MORE, THEN ONYONE OTHER THAN THE ICON'RALPH & JAN, FOR A MINAL MONTLY PAYMENT OF A COULE OF, IN MY PAST. DRINKIN MONEY, I OWN PRIDE, AND AFTER MY STOKE, COMA ETC, THE COUTERIE RESTORE MY FOCUS AND THE ONLY ONES, IN THE ENLISH SPEEKING WORD, TO TAKE MY CALLS, THAK ALSO TO THE REV & ONE OF THE TRUE, ICONS, WHOSE BEEN AROUND TO STACH AN ABERCROMIE ETAL FOR PROBLY $300, SO REMER THIS ELEVTH AMENMENT "THOU SHALT NOT COVETT THY NEIBORS' LUGER COLLECTION, ERIC 772-336-5312