Replacing springs
 

What is the general opinion of replacing springs in shooter Lugers? The two I shoot are a 1920 Commercial in .30 and a 1936 S/42. Even though the Germans were really good at metallurgy and heat treating it seems to me that replacing 80-100 year old springs with new ones is cheap insurance. The Wolff kit comes with mainspring, firing pin spring, trigger spring and extractor spring. The guns function fine but I don't want to batter them with springs that may have taken a set.

Should any of the other springs be addressed?

I'd say it depends on whether or not the gun functions well (in addition to passing the "tape test." There is some wisdom in the old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

If other springs are in need of a change, they will have their ways of letting you know about it!

I'm yet to see a modern Luger spring that matches the durability and quality of the originals.

I'm not an expert, and I don't play one on the Internet...

BUT

I *always* replace the recoil spring at the very least on *any* new-to-me semi auto pistol just as soon as I get it. The only exception was my recently acquired Broomhandle, and that was only because the seller of same had replaced it within recent memory.

Springs are cheap, pistols are not. Even if the original spring was originally better - so what? That was 70 years (or more) ago. Springs are cheap, that spring in the pistol may or may not be original anyway. Springs are cheap, you could replace the entire set every year and not spend the money the next cheapest part costs for decades. Springs are cheap.

Dem's my thoughts on the subject - as a tyro, I admit I could be wrong - but it works for me.

Wolf springs for the luger are "all over the place" with respect to length and "power".
You may or may not be improving your situation.

As you can see from the chart, the Germans(or someone) could not exactly make up their mind what spring was needed! JMHO.
Of particular note are the springs for the 1920 and 1923 commercial lugers- 7,65mm and 9mm the same-but '20 and '23 are different from each other, as the kids say- "go figure". I realize these are from measurement and may not be totally reliable, but are offered to put mainspring variations out for consideration!

I have used Wolf springs, but only after measurement. The first Wolf "Kit" I bought had 3 different stregnth mainsprings or was supposed to; the 34 lb spring was longer and stronger than the 38 lb- at least the way they were labeled.

If you must mess with your spring, take it out, measure the wire diameter and number of turns and the free length. Compare with the table that is available.

Then decide what to do, and by all means compare the "new" spring to the old and the chart.:thumbup:

My understanding from some reading and talking to those more expert than myself is that high quality coil springs, such as used in Lugers, do not wear out progressively. I.e., they do not become weaker or lose tension over time during normal use. Like any other part of the pistol they can break, suffer corrosion and the like but these can be detected by inspection. On any Luger purchase I disassemble and inspect all parts under magnification.

I replace or adjust springs if inspection or improper function indicates a need. Otherwise, I leave the springs alone. The Luger is a balanced system and replacing springs on a properly functioning pistol may degrade function, requiring further action to restore function.

Jim,

I have to admire the craftsmanship and knowledge that goes into the Luger assembly. Materials have changed I think over the years. That said, the Luger materials have weathered a lot of storms. People tell me that making a spring has its nuiances, when you get done, either you have a spring or you don't......... :)

I shoot my Lugers; what a pleasure that is. With each new one to me acquired, I am just accustomed to replacing the recoil spring at a minimum. I use Wolff just because I have some and been ok with them. I have noticed that some of the Wolff recoil springs are longer, but seemed to work for me.

If I was pondering such, I would certainly buy or build a recoil tool like some shown on this forum, kinda an awl looking affair with a bend at the nose. Gives you leverage for the coil spring compression. Of course, if you are handy; make your own. I used a pair of pliers and a rod for years, but cannot say that was intelligent, worked; but not intelligent.

Did I mention safety glasses, folks(user or helpers) only get one set of peepers.

I would examine the ramps for galling from the toggles hitting the ramps abbynormally hard and the area of the frame behind the toggle(just above the lanyard loop) for bite. Some guns will give some mark(two side by side marks on the frame), some will be well bitten. The tape test visited here during a firing session will help judge, as will your hand during firing (sting).

Some will tailor reloads or ammo to the pistol. I prefer to handload myself, and will tune the load to just function from the magazine and then a bit more.

Wolff may offer 36,38,40lb rates for Lugers. I have only used the 38lb in my Lugers, I have 36's for 30's, but never used them in the 30 Luger or the 7.65x19 wildcat. Perhaps my lot of springs was ok; I never worried about it, worked.

The other spring I would look at is the extractor spring. See if the extractor can clear an empty shell in the chamber. The spring stack up in my opinion has to be able to allow the nose of the extractor over the case rim without springing of the extractor itself. If the extractor starts acting like a primary spring, because the little spring is too long and stack up jam occurs, the extractor will probably start to fracture and fail. Easy to do, could save an expensive part.

I think the recoil mechanism is fairly complex as are most autoloaders. The recoil spring is a major player in all of this, but the condition of the rails(tightness, sprung) will contribute to the friction resistance. Another is the ammo load itself, way up there in pressure works great but batters, too low......jams. Kinda like the 3 bears and their bowls of porridge huh?

The leaf springs for the sear and the ejector itself. I just test for tension ability and the ability to move like they should in range. Harder to find than coil springs, I have replaced one sear spring that went out into the blue(snapped) at the range one time.

I remember some discussion about making new coil recoil springs on this forum, you might try a quickie search if so interested

Rick W.

This very thought occurred to me the other day, whilst I was re-assembling a 1911 recoil spring plug...The barrel bushing was tight, and the Colt bushing tool slipped off. The plug caromed off the side of my head and has not yet been found. :(

I was able to get a new plug from Numrich [$26]. But it was a close call. :rolleyes:

springs
 

Hi to all, a lot of what makes a spring live is covered in the design, and the quality of materials? If a spring is design to work at max load and full compression every time, it will eventually, and continually weaken and sooner or later break?... The initial loss of length is called taking a set, and all coil springs do this to some extent. On the other hand, a spring that always operates in the middle of its work range will last for thousands of cycles, maybe even tens of thousands of cycles... But, Luger coil springs do not enjoy that luxury! Especially the main spring and extractor spring.... The Luger springs were engineered to fit a specific space to address a certain work load that was/is close to max performance demands with every cycle... It would be an interesting experiment to put in a new spring, and measure it at 0 rounds, 10 rounds, 100 rounds, and 1000rounds... any significant change in length after 1000 rounds would probably dictate a change is needed... I know that the tape test is good for calibrating loads, but it doesn't really tell you witch is the culprit/ I find that a Luger with a weak or failing mainspring will not close consistently on the following round?.. New mainspring, and pow! Right back to normal function... best to all, til....lat'r.....GT ....;)

This has been a very good discussion and has given me a lot to think about. After reading dome of the comments I disassembled my two shooters and noticed virtually no wear on the inside of the frames where the rear of the breech bolt would contact during recoil. The exterior of the frame, under the duck bill, has the typical wear marks but they are mostly blue wear with little or no metal wear. I think I'll leave the springs as they are for now and monitor the wear to the guns.

I do a LOT of gun work and wear reading glasses to see what I'm doing. But they also double as safety glasses. Always wear them when working with springs.

GT,
About ten years ago, we were going to work on a main spring project together. Any update here?

Sieger

Hi Bob,
 

When I had the magazine springs made, I had an in with the general manager who was not afraid to exceed his grasp on my project! In the interim, the spring company was bought out be a large corp. and all were let go, and so went the main spring project... repeated contact efforts was met with the standard corporate, "we don't know what your talking about!" ....:eek:.... I wouldn't mind revisiting the project, but I've so much on my plate already, that it seems unlikely in the immediate future... But, I'm still learning! ;) You'd think I'd be past that.... ;)... So, anything is still possible! best to you Bob, til....lat'r.....GT....;)

This is an interesting topic, because I was still in doubt whether I would change the main spring in my BYF 41. It does feel much less strong when I work the action then the one in the p08 of a friend of mine. I also found some damage on the back of the frame.

But my question now is. Is Wolff the best option out there?

I'm in a quandary.....but I think the correct way to handle it, would be to replace the mainspring. I recently bought a 1920 Commercial 7.65 which is in excellent + condition, but has a very stiff mainspring. My normal reloads, and including some factory Fiocchi ammo, won't cycle at all; the breech comes back and cocks, but then slams the fired case back into the chamber. I'm guessing that someone put a 9mm spring in it. I really don't want to load-up hotter ammo. Your comments will be much appreciated.

Bob,
post pictures of the "damage".

DWM used the same spring for .30 and 9mm at times. See the attached chart.
Factory Fiocchi(some boxes/lots/variants) are know to be "weak" and won't fully function a luger.
Try some PPU(Privi Partizan)- they usually work.

That 1911 recoil spring plug is about .45 caliber if I remember correctly... so you can now say you have shot yourself in the temple with a .45 and survived... :roflmao:

Bob,

When I re-spring a Luger, I will reach for the bag of 38 lb Wolff springs; I pay no attention as to 30 or 9mm chambering. Just one opinion. I have never clipped a coil off a Luger replacement spring fwiw. I have 36 lb and 40 lb springs, but all they do is gather dust so far. As you, I try to cater the load of the day to the desires of the firearm itself, and try not to beat the pistol apart during shooting(enjoying it). Hot loads will run a Luger at times, but the contact surfaces pay for it.........sooner or later. Super hot loads in a Luger always bothered me because of the cuts int he chamber entry, ie a form of gapspace....just a remembrance, nothing else there.

Due to old habits with Lugers, I never load more than 5 in the magazine, old magazines/cracked wood made me a believer fwiw.

My Luger loads are probably in the middle range of published reference reloading data. I use 80 to 100 gr bullets(30 cal) and Unique powder. Unique has gotten a bit cleaner but still not as good in clean as newer powders, but I still have cannisters of it to use up. I have started to venture into resizing 312 bullets down to 309 for flexibility, jury is still out, but at least trying to be open minded.

It takes a bit of hand strength to change the recoil spring in a Luger, the tool like you see here on the forum made similar to an bent awl will give you leverage. The note above on safety glasses I am sure you will heed for all of us, being a shooter type; sight is precious even if one does not have a lot of time.

I have not used factory ammo for years other than carry qualifications, and that was for a cocked/locked 1911 45acp.

One might query and look at the ejector nose/fitment, used guns sometimes surprise the buyers......like me. Things I would have never thought of, I saw in some preowned guns............after I bought of course.

I use the tape test mentioned here on the forum to check for excessive movement rearward of the toggle mechanism. Not all inclusive, but better than just using the feel in the hand(sting). I have the old notion that heavy toggle slap to the frame surfaces will eventually cause issues to said frame and user.

I agree with Rick W. I have been handloading for my Lugers, especially the 7.65P ones, for many years. I try to keep my loads as close to the original factory loads as possible using 92gr. lead and FMJ bullets and Unique powder. My Lugers seem to agree with the recoil impulse produced with Unique powder, so I stick with it. I have used other faster powders, but was not overly pleased with the results.

As to springs, I have the "calibration packs" from Wolff Springs and just do a trial and error approach to what each Luger is happy with when using my handloads. When I do shoot factory ammo in these Lugers, they seem to be o.k. with that ammo as well.

If you really want to know about Luger springs. Consider this. The ejector, in a Luger, is basically a spring. The only ones I saw break, including in one of mine, were modern reproductions.:D

These are some dividers I bought at a yard sale which had been modified, and so I repurposed them. This is an easy way to remove or replace a mainspring, and you don't have to be Charles Atlas to do it;

Schtzenbob,
Interesting tool you have modified to remove the main spring. I would have never thought of using a divider to do this task.

Jeffrey

Always, Always, Always wear your safety goggles.....springs have a habit of "springing" away in a heartbeat........

Fiocchi in .30 Luger is too short to properly feed in some Luger actions. It is also too weak to correctly operate many Luger actions. Prvi Partisan ammo is longer and a bit stronger. The Luger action is intended to be a balanced system and will not operate correctly no matter what the mainspring strength if energy from the round is below the required level. Lugers are robust and IMO Prvi will not damage a mechanically sound Luger.

I can tell you from experience that some Lugers cannot be made to operate correctly with shorter/weaker ammo by weakening the mainspring. I once tried to make a Luger cycle with Fiocchi by weakening the mainspring; I finally got it to feed but the mainspring was then so weak it would not return the toggle to battery. With a stronger mainspring and Prvi it functioned perfectly.

I personally would not adjust a mainspring until I had tested a .30 Luger with both Fiocchi and Prvi. When I find I must adjust a mainspring, I start with one that is too strong and progressively weaken it by removing 1/2 coil, re-testing and so on until the spring will reliably operate the pistol with the selected ammo. Tedious process perhaps, but I find it satisfying to return a Luger to proper function.

Cool trick with the dividers! I'm going to make one of those. :)

Jim Solomon I think makes a traditional tool. With a little practice it isn't difficult to remove a mainspring.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...highlight=tool

Wow what a great idea. Main spring are my worst nightmare....

[QUOTE=Rick W.;315830]Bob,


"My Luger loads are probably in the middle range of published reference reloading data. I use 80 to 100 gr bullets(30 cal) and Unique powder. Unique has gotten a bit cleaner but still not as good in clean as newer powders, but I still have cannisters of it to use up. I have started to venture into resizing 312 bullets down to 309 for flexibility, jury is still out, but at least trying to be open minded."


I've come up with a number of boxes of 100gr Speer Plinkers that I'd like to use in my 30. I'm concerned about the depth the bullet seats in the shell. I've got four rounds loaded with 4 gr of Bullseye that i'm taking to the range tonight. I also reload with Unique but had a tin of Bullseye I wanted to use up.
I'm sorry if it looks like I'm hijacking this post but this is the first solid info I've seen on 100gr in a 30.

All .30 lugers are not created equally when it comes to feeding- some will feed and shoot nearly any .30 luger round, others not.

Thanks to the guys who talk about reloading away the problem; but remember perhaps only 10% or fewer of the guys with a .30 luger will ever load for it!

The only "factory" ammo currently loaded is Fiocchi and PPU, try them- if one or both works -fine.
If not diddle with the mainspring after determining if it is a recoil problem or not. Old stock Winchester and Remington are hit and miss in my .30 lugers, some like it others don't- I would not pay a "fortune" for old stock ammo expecting it to be a solution.

Easiest way to do this is load one round, fire- if it locks open then the ammo is "strong" enough and the problem lies somewhere other than the mainspring.

Could be several things, from magazine to feed ramp to overall cartridge length, extractor, ejector, or something else.

Once you are tired of trying to fix it yourself, consider sending it to Lugerdoc for his evaluation.

JMHO. ;)

Does anyone make replacement mainsprings for the Old Model?

If so, can anyone report on its success or functionality?

Thanks,
Curl

Not that I have seen.
There are what appear to be old reproductions and NOS springs available, and used springs.

Lugerdoc will/does/may have a replacement spring for you.
You can PM him on these boards.

This sounds like a job for Superman... I mean G.T.!

Thanks for the replies. I have learned that LugerMan has a couple of OM mainsprings listed. I assume they are vintage and not newly made, but that's my assumption.

The good thing is, I don't need this part (as in, I don't have an Old Model with a broken mainspring).

My thought was that if I had an extra mainspring and an extra extractor I might consider shooting my Old Model Parabellums on occasion with the substitute parts in place of the original parts. I believe these parts are the most susceptible to failure, and Gortz & Sturgess make that point also. Having a replacement mainspring or extractor to fail upon firing wouldn't be as heart wrenching as having the original part to fail. I think the other parts are robust enough to trust with the only reservation being the left grip panel being prone to the "million dollar crack."

Anyway just a thought and probably will remain thought only.

Thanks again,
Curl

Curl et al, I do have new repro M1900 flat recoil springs in stock. TH

Looking for gunsmith near Ohio to replace Luger Mainspring..
 

Anyone know of a good gunsmith in Ohio (N. Ohio) who can replace the mainspring in my DWM 1920 Luger (.30 Luger) so it will function with available lower powered Fiochii ammunition? Thanks for your help.

I would reccomend looking at G.T. or LugerDoc. I know they’re out of state, but living here in Northern and Western Ohio (Bowling Green and Sidney) there aren’t very many competent Luger gunsmiths that I’ve been able to find.

Please read post #23 above. I tried exactly the same idea and it did not work. If you insist on going ahead, let us know how it turns out; it's possible it works in some Lugers and not others.