Ever elusive parabellum rifles.
 

I have caught a glimpse of one of Paul Mausers early SLR mechanism, consisting of a rather oversised toggle action, for which he was sued by Georg Luger due to patent infringement. Mauser gave up the idea, but supposedly Luger himself built rifles with parabellum type mechanisms. Can anyone verify this information, and have any survived to this day, even in miserable condition?
THanks, TOm.

Tom,

It seems Luger's real passion was to build and market a semi-automatic rifle. There is some excellent information about it in 'The Dutch Luger', since some archive material survived when Luger offered his design to the Dutch government.

The Luger rifle was, as far as I know, not a toggle-action rifle, but a bolt-action semi-auto.
(update: I was wrong, see my follow-up post :D )

Many of his patents for the P08 show a rifle-background, for example the loaded-chamber indicator/ejector patent.

When he was discharged by DWM, in 1919, he took them to court because he didn't want to surrender the rights of his pending projects to DWM, showing he was still designing stuff right until his death some years later.

What is the story on this picture, of what appears to be a Luger rifle. Real or madeup???

Is it one of Luger's prototypes???

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/alugerrifle.jpg

This is the Luger Rifle (serial #4) which used to be in the Interarms (UK) collection, and it was sold by Christie's (UK) in 1996/97. I had the opportunity to photograph and handle this rifle. A few years later, the same rifle was auctioned by Butterfields and it fetched less in price than when it was sold by Christies. To this date, it is the only Luger rifle known to exist.

Albert

Seems to me there were other attempts at a toggle action rifle, not connected with Luger, DWM, or Mauser.

Incidentally, Mauser lost an eye due to a blow up with one of his attempts at a self loading rifle. Wear your shooting glasses!

this serial nr. 4 looks very pretty, possibly a little too pretty, know any history behind it? How on earth does the toggle mechanism clear the stripper clip guide, it seems to be right over the front toggle pivot? I think mauser's toggle looked a bit more refined, with the added benefit of a charging lever on the right side, and the stripper clip guide built directly into the breechblock. sadly only the toggle remains, as he gave it to one of his workers as a gift after the courts forced him to scrap the project due to luger's intervention. seems to me that this nr.4 would be a real strain to cycle by hand without any type of lever, was it also built for the 7,92X57IS round?

one other thought, how in the heck does that trigger link up with the firing pin??? I can build that rifle from outward looks, but I'd never get it to fire with the trigger in back and the mechanism seemingly operated through the sideplate as on the pistol. I've been wracking my brain on this one, can't seem to design anything satisfactory as a trigger linkage, all my ideas are too weak or too elongated to be reliable. finally, is the barrel just free to move inside the stock, i'm assuming it is still recoil operated and not gas?

There is the Pedersen rifle. It had a toggle, but it was a delayed blowback action...

What cartridge did this Luger Rifle (serial #4) use?

Hi,

I think the barrel stays in place and only the receiver/toggle assembly moves backwards. Trigger linkage/sear bar is probably rotated to be placed underneath the toggle rather than besides it.

If this thing is Luger's design, it's bound to be patented somewhere, or alternatively if it uses DWM owned patents, Luger could never have marketed it.

In this thread from December; http://forums.lugerforum.com/lugerfo...=000085#000000

the luger rifle was talked about, and the pictures are from the dutch book, the Dutch Luger, they aren't on the hard drive anymore.

Ed

Thanks Ed, I had actually done a search before I posted this, as the previous thread didn't really answer a lot of my curiosities.

As far as the history of the above pictured rifle is concerned I did finally find mention of it (possibly) in an issue of American Rifleman "Luger made up four prototype 8mm military type rifles with toggle actions. They were never accepted by the military. A few years ago, the well-known Christies auction house in London sold one for more than $100,000."

Still, I wonder what the actual internal workings of this rifle are. Is this the one pictured in the patent papers shown in Dutch Lugers? Sadly I do not have access to a copy. If anyone has photos they would be most helpful and appreciated.

Finally, does anyone know what happened to Nr.1,2,&3? Probably stolen by the Russians at the end of WWII and then lost forever, is my best guess. Thanks, Tom.

Hi Tom,

No it isn't. The example mentioned in 'The Dutch Luger' is strictly an improved bolt-action design.

Somewhere in the dim recesses of my memory I seem to recall a "Mondragon" rifle with a toggle action that had some connection with Mexico.

Well, I looked up the Mondragon rifle. The Mexican Army adopted it in 1907 in limited numbers as the first operational military self loading rifle. No toggle action, itâ??s a straight line rotating bolt gas operated design. But itâ??s still of importance to Luger fans. Mexico had a contract with SIG for production but canceled before very many were delivered due to Mexicoâ??s financial problems. SIG was stuck with a running production set up and sold them to any willing buyers. Germany bought around 3000 of them and used them to arm aircraft in the early stages of WWI. To provide fire power for them a 30 round drum magazine was developed. This same magazine was modified to accept the 9 mm Parabellum cartridge and went on to fame as our beloved snail drum magazine for the Luger.

Hereâ??s a bit on the history:

http://www.cruffler.com/historic-february01.html

Here is a light machine gun the Swiss Bern arsenal developed in the 1940's...utilizing a toggle mechanism...with spent casings ejected to the left side.

Photo credit from V. Bobba's book on Swiss lugers, on page 134 :

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/togglemachinegun.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/togglemachinegun.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

I can't really tell, but it looks like they took parts from a parabellum and built it into a submachine gun. Strange, very strange. Is it in fact a LMG or an MP?

Hi Thomas,

If you click on the photo, it will increase in size one time. If you go to the lower, right hand corner of that larger photo, it will increase in size one more time...

It appears that the toggle parts are of a larger size/scale than on the luger pistols...the photo caption says this was a machine gun adapted to aircraft use...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Pete, is that the Swiss MP? I have a 1951 dated manual for it and it well illustrates the toggle system. I also have a manual for the Swiss Leichte Maschinengewehr (Lmg 25) this one is dated 1943. This MG also has a toggle action. It seems that the watch-makers and bankers just couldn't get enough of that ancient and complex system.

I'm not too surprised, as the original toggle design was meant for a light machinegun (the first being built up around a Winchester lever action), later found it's way into heavy machineguns (courtesy of Hiram Maxim) until someone (Borchardt) realized it might work on a handgun.

G. van,

I'd be interested in hearing more about the "Winchester" and other predecessors to the Maxim. I have been laboring under the impression that the Maxim was an original with Maxim having received inspiration from the crank and piston action of an engine. Not that there were not other "togglely" actions.

I believe the Maxim was the first successful "true machine gun" or at least the first commercially successfule one.

Several firearms of the mid 19th century featured toggle locks. Henry's repeating rifle, Winchester, and Smith & Wesson. Many have speculated that Maxim would have been exposed to those mechanism and transfered the idea to the machine gun. They even shared the toggle breaking downward. Maxim's first experiments involved a modified Winchester, just to prove the theory. His first working model, looked like it used the principles of a steam engine. It makes one revolution per shot, but with a difference of changing direction of rotation for each shot. Maxim was a very intelligent man, an American, who was paid to live outside of America, by the Edison and financial backers group who were tired of having to compete with him. I always thought that was interesting...

A prototype Browning A-5 shotgun also used the toggle system.

Hi,

It's not sheer speculation. Hiram Maxim developed a working machinegun using a modified Winchester lever-action as a basis while in the UK. This gun was never marketed but led to the development of the first Maxim machineguns.

Startin in 1899 DWM Berlin manufactured the Maxim under license and also improved the Maxim carriages. They even developed special carriages for installation in Zeppelin airships.

As for the first "Maxim" Maxim design operating like a steam engine, I have always understood that Maxim first designed the crank for continuous rotation as in an engine, but the powers that be in military purchasing circles were afraid of a run-a-way condition and instigated the change to the crank not making a complete rotation.

I also understand that the first time a Maxim fired in anger was in British hands in Central Africa in what is today known as Uganda where the British were attempting to pacify the locals.

In the book "Machine Guns" by Ian V. Hogg, he states that Maxim understood the problem of inertia and decided on the reversing direction crank to subdue the problem. The mechanism was completely changed to the familiar downward breaking toggle for commercial sales...

An illustration of the Maxim toggle mechanism:

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/maxim.jpg

If anyone can get a hold of LF member, Mr. Roberto Allara, he has a nice jpeg of an old Luger rifle without its wooden stock.

I have misplaced both the jpeg he sent me, last year, as well as his email address...

Some photos from V. Bobba's book on Swiss lugers.

1st. photo is of a Henry pistol, 2nd. and 3rd. photos are of its European-issued "cousin", the Volcanic...I think both pre-date the Maxim works...

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/volcano3.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/volcano3.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/volcano2.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/volcano2.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/volcano1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/volcano1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Here is a photo of a surviving Luger rifle that resides in England. This photo was made avaiable by LF member, Roberto Allara, who secured the photo from his collector friend in England :

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rallara3_large.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rallara3_large.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Does it have a double-set trigger???

Hi Johnny,

I think this one does/did.

Not sure, but I think it might belong to Dr. Sturgess in England...

Regards,

Pete...

Martens & De Vries showed some interesting info on the Luger rifle in 'The Dutch Luger' als Luger offered his design to the Dutch authorities as a possible infantry rifle.

I believe they picture the same rifle which was described as a hunting version of the Luger rifle. That would explain the double trigger layout.

Hi,

While browsing through some German patent-information during a quest for information on another subject, I stumbled across this 1906 patent in Georg Luger's name.

It shows some of his experiments on the Luger rifle, using the Parabellum toggle lock and the old-pattern leaf spring and the newer coil spring.

The patent in question is the Swiss one (35943), dated January, 3rd, 1906.

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/lugerpatent1.jpg

Great find, Gerben...

And keep digging in those archives...maybe you will find the answer to your other quest ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Hi Pete,

I was actually looking for a possible explanation of the drilled-through takedown lever when I found this.

A patent drawing showing a drilled-through lever and a fastening nut, used to secure the sideplate (for whatever wild reason) is shown in Goertz' book 'Die Pisole 08' (revised).

Sadly, the original patent appears to have gone missing. I wrote the German patent office and their reply was that it was no longer present...

A patent describing the receiver and toggle design of the pictured Luger rifle #4 was indeed files by Georg Luger around 1912.

I found a surviving Swiss patent #60143, filed by Luger's agent on the 18th of March, 1912.

The patent describes the changes he made to the receiver and toggle design, including the small ramp visible in the center, which acts as a stop. He was obviously worried about the sturdiness of the pistol design describing that the complete functionality of the weapon rested on the condition of th rear toggle link pin.

He devised a way to ensure toggle operation without relying too heavily on the toggle pin, introducing a center and rear brace in the design. The toggle can be lifted out in an angle.

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...rifle_1912.jpg