DWM Commercial 9mmP
 

All,

Just acquired this one. Seller indicated it was his father's, who had passed a couple years ago. I'll let the photos speak for themselves, and only comment on things not visible in the photos:

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/m...Commercial.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/m...Commercial.jpg

Left barrel extension flat, where we might normally expect to find barrel extension serial number or firing proof, has a dip suggesting some marking has been ground off.

I thought at first that the stock lug had been ground off. If so, whomever did the work left no sign of the lug or the work done to remove it. I'm inclined to think it never had a stock lug.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/m...Commercial.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/m...Commercial.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/m...Commercial.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/m...Commercial.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/m...Commercial.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/m...Commercial.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/m...Commercial.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/m...Commercial.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/m...Commercial.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/m...Commercial.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/m...Commercial.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/m...Commercial.jpg

The frame started life as a military frame, note the pin and stamp for added hold open.
It would have been an early frame, likely never had a stock lug.

Tough to say much about the origin of the receiver, except that it has been re-barreled and the barrel numbered to match the frame.

Thanks for your comments, Don. I messed up putting up the photos. I'd intended to put up all four views of the cannon (top, bottom, left, and right) but had only put up two copies of the top image. I've updated the post and hopefully have all four views up now. One of the oddities with this one is the barrel extension doesn't have the full four serial number anywhere (just the last two, '81', on the extension lug. It does have that dished area on the left extension flat where (presumably) the original serial number may have been.

There are also no firing proof on the breech block or barrel extension. The only firing proof I see is one the barrel.

Proofs and other markings on the receiver were quite likely removed.
The receiver could have been an early commercial receiver or a navy receiver. Neither had markings on the top or right side, but the Navy would have had some on the left as would most of the commercial pistols- but some commercial contracts may not have had any marking on the left. Most commercial pistols and the navy pistols did not have the serial number on the left chamber, neither did some other versions in the early years.

The breech block show severe pitting and any markings may or were likely removed in its re-finishing. The grips are nice looking Mauser inspected late P08 grips.

The numbering on the bottom lug, and marking on the bottom of the receiver- could be studied and the likely donor narrowed down a bit- it would take some time to sort out(for me), but maybe one of the "early luger" guys can narrow it down.

Basically it is just a "mongrel", built from parts and nicely re-finished.

What is the shield-shaped mark over the numbers on the bottom of the barrel?
dju

Here's another, early-ish P.08 Commercial in 9 mm. I'd take a shot--if I had the dough...!

https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/DWM-P0...136&rfpb=0#Top

The shield with a slash is a DWM inspector's mark.

--Dwight

Purely FYI, the breech block (indeed, the gun generally) shows no pitting at all and is pretty much immaculate. The prior owner was one of those rare people who kept the internal parts lightly greased rather than oiled. The blue sheen that is especially visible on the breech block is that grease.

All in all, a rather nice shooter IMO.

Well,
perhaps I should have said "was" severely pitted before the pits were draw filed or reduced in some way and then the block refinished.

I and all should be able to see the pits that remain and the file marks in your picture. Pits are clearly visible on the left side picture at the rear top, and in the channel groove, the file marks are visible in the area that would have had the firing proof- which was also removed by the filing. Pitting is also present in a line at and to the left of the "81" and in the groove at the upper left.

The breech block has been filed enough to leave the mid toggle proud of the breech block forward of the toggle pin.

very fine holster. any maker marks? who made?

It is a nice design (Bucheimer-Clark):

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/m...Commercial.jpg

Don,

Yes, some tool marks are visible where a firing proof may have been removed, but the middle toggle link is “proud” only in your imagination. The “pitting” so obvious to you is just dirt and grease, and rubs right off.

I don’t know why you have taken such a dislike to this gun, but the defects you seem to want to harp on exist only in your head.

Actually I have no dislike for the pistol at all.
It is the picture that you posted that I commented on, if the pits wiped off, then post another and I'll revise my opinion.
Otherwise, what I see is what I see- and it is pitting- no doubt- why do you insist it is not?

Perhaps you don't see the pitting on the fxo magazine either?

But my main point was that the pistol is not a "commercial" model as you had it in the title and placed it erroneously in the commercial part of the forum.

I am gratified that you can see the file marks now.:banghead:

Ben,

If you like the holster and would like to have it, shoot me an e-mail at kyrieellis@aol.com. I don't collect holsters :-)

Your failure to distinguish between dirt and pitting, and your demonstrated inability to recognize 1920 Commercial variations, renders your opinions uninteresting.

Then please do offer your explanation of the presence of the military frame on what you insist is a "commercial" luger. The world wonders!:bowdown:

Given the lack of a stock lug as well as the retrofitted hold open, I am inclined to think it started out life as an '08 first military.

Gentlemen.... an educated discussion over a particular specimen may involve opinions, and everybody has one, but does not require sarcasm... nuff said.

George,

I think you are right on target concerning the frame; it’s from an old military Luger whose initial manufacture predated the requirement for a stock lug (or a hold open).

The frame survived, and was reused, with a mixture of new and other old (salvage) parts to create a new and saleable Luger. That’s the common definition of a 1920 Commercial Luger; new gun assembled from a mixture of new and old, salvaged, parts. See Kenyon, Still, et. al.. All this is old news.

The mostly Erfurt 1920 Commercial of which I posted photos a short while ago is another example of a common 1920 Commercial. That gun was mostly composed of Erfurt parts, a DMW barrel extension dated 1916, and a new (at the time) production 7.65 mmP barrel.

Someone recently remarked, either here on this forum or Jan’s forum, that 1920 Commercial Lugers get no respect. That’s true and always has been. 1920 Commercial variation Lugers command lower prices and there are fewer collectors who specialize in 1920 Commercials that in any other variation.

There are many reasons for that and I suspect the single largest reason is simply that 1920 Commercial variant Lugers either have no apparent provenance, or have so many apparent provenances that no one can place them in time or by purpose.

One of the most common complaints I’ve heard from collectors is they cannot tell the difference between a 1920 Commercial made by DWM in 1920 and a parts gun put together by some guy in his garage in Atlanta Georgia in 1975.

I’d not be surprised to find there were a number of collectors on this forum who believe this gun is a parts gun of recent vintage. If so, I’m not about to try and persuade them otherwise. The more people there are who cannot tell the difference between a 1920 Commercial and a parts gun the fewer people there will be bidding against me for the 1920 Commercial variants I’m bidding on :thumbup:

Kyrie,
I must apologize for a failure to communicate or one of semantics that led to our butting heads.

I use a different definition for 1920 commercial than you do; one more recently promulgated than the stand-by collector names found in many of the older reference books.

These are Jan Still's definitions/conventions for commercial model lugers of the period between WWI and II- not mine:
"Models: 1923 Commercial (better called 20 DWM), 1920 Commercial (better called Alphabet DWM), 1933 Mauser Sneak (better called 29 DWM) ".

If you want to call your luger a 1920 Commercial- I recognize that it certainly may have been assembled from various parts for commercial sale in the 1920s or early '30s(or later). That explains the disconnect in my observations and comments.
Many concerns in Germany did this in the post WWI years , for sure.

But for many of us, a "1920 Commercial" luger or "Alphabet DWM" is a particular combination of features, proofing, and serial numbers with suffix manufactured by DWM after their WWI military production ceased and before they became BKIW.

It would be nice if you posted the pics here on the Forum instead of PhotoBucket so that those of us on a government computer/ISP could see them and know what is being discussed. :)

Don,

Apology accepted, and I sincerely tender my own apology to you for my own intemperate remarks. Missed communication indeed.

I began collecting Lugers back in the day when Kenyon was about the only resource available (unless one counts Datig), and Jan Still’s works wouldn’t be published for another twenty-five or thirty years. It’s hard for collectors of today (who have had access to the works of Still, Walter, Gortz, Sturgess, et. al. for a significant part of their lives) to appreciate just how much the 1920s and the guns produced in them were nearly a complete mystery back in the day.

I’m not just aware of Still’s work and new nomenclature (20 DWM, Alphabet DWM, 29 DWM), I’m an enormous fan of his creation of the terminology and the underlying work that produced it. For a caveman era Luger collector like myself it was wonderfully clarifying and brought some badly needed order to the literature (and the pricing!) of late Imperial, Weimar, and very early third Reich Lugers.

But this new system of classification of, well, call it “interregnum Lugers” is focused almost entirely on guns intended for use in Germany by the German armed forces (in which I include the German police).

It does not address the tons of Lugers not destined for use, or even necessarily sale, in Germany and these guns cannot be classed within the limits imposed by 20 DWM, Alphabet DWM, and 29 DWM. These are guns for which I still used the term “1920 Commercial” because there is still no more descriptive term.

I’m honestly not willfully misusing the term “1920 Commercial” when I should be using “Alphabet DWM”. I’m using 1920 Commercial for Lugers that are outside the underlying rules that define the usage of 20 DWM, Alphabet DWM, or 29 DWM.

Quite true about the "old" books and your explanation fully explains the "issue".
We are indeed fortunate today to have all the great books on all facets of lugers that are available.

We do lack an "agreed" name for those lugers, I don't know what to call them as "they" extend in time from 1919 to the early 1930s.

Maybe they are "depression lugers"? I was not being derogatory when I called the pistol a "mongrel", though it probably sounded like it- maybe it and the many similar ones are just "orphans". :)

While some may choose to call this piece a 1920s Commercial, it is at best a "cottage industry" product of that era. Since it bears no proofs it is not a factory made item. Nice looking.

Dwight,

I'd be very interested in learning more on this subject. This mark is, in my experience, not often encountered. Is there any primary source information concerning the circumstances under which it was used? Absent primary source info, has there been any observable pattern in its usage?

TIA!

Kyrie

kyrie, thanks for your kindly offer. just wanted to learn about maker. i have shooter guns and not holster. so am like you.

Ben,

You're very welcome.

I think I may have to disagree here. When it comes to 1920 Commercial variations we seldom have any hard information on where, by whom, or even the year in which such a variation was made. This example may have been produced by some individual gun smith, or by some small enterprise, or by DWM; the gun itself is ambiguous and we are left to speculate on its origin.

If you care to see the gun as a product of a family run "cottage industry", you may certainly do so, and that's as valid a view as any other.

Also, it might be good to remember that not all factory made guns have proof marks. That's especially true of Germany during the early to late 1920s. That was a time during which law and custom frequently came in a poor second to economic necessity and/or political beliefs and fears. I could actually make a good, if highly speculative (!) case for this gun being one of a short sub Rosa DWM run of sidearms for one of the Freikorps companies, with the shield stamp on the barrel signifying DWM internal proof/Freikorps acceptance.

All this is what makes these darn 1920 Commercial guns so frustrating for people who are made uncomfortable by the unknown. They are, I think, representative of a country for which the wheels have fallen off.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion. By the way, the shield stamp has nothing to do with Freikorps. It was in use long before the 1920s, being found on Model 1900 and 1906 examples. It just signifies that there was something about the barrel that required additional scrutiny and when found acceptable and/or corrected it received the inspector's mark.

I understand that the shield stamp is a DWM stamp and did not intend to suggest any direct connection between the stamp and the Freikorps.

Rather what I was suggesting in my speculation was DWM used the shield stamp as a substitute for the normal firing proof on the barrel to indicate clandestine acceptance by a non-government military/police custom, such as one of the Freikorps companies.

Ah, I understand your speculation. However, DWM would not be allowed to use an inspector's stamp for a firing proof. Firing proof was governed by law, not DWM, consequently the type of marking was stipulated by law.

And proof firing and the application of firing proofs are performed by a government entity, not the factory.

--Dwight

I understand your point and, under normal circumstances, would fully agree. But the circumstances in Germany in the 1920 were not ordinary. Laws were obeyed, or circumvented, or just ignored as a matter of course due to overriding financial, political, and personal reasons.

Let’s consider some of the acts that show context:

Mauser continues to make and sell C96 pistols chambered for the 9mmP cartridge, and hides the production and sale by falsification of the records.

The German army hides as much of its inventory of heavy weapons as possible in Swedish artillery parks with the assistance of Krupp and the connivance of the Swedish government.

The German army moves its research and testing of the next generation of armored fighting vehicle to the Soviet Union to avoid interference by Versailles treaty inspectors.

What passes for the German government unofficially uses the Freikorps companies to suppress internal rebellions (e.g. Berlin - Spartacus revolt, Breman, Munich) and impose German policy externally (Latvia, Estonia), and to conduct political assignations of political opponents in Germany (notably that of Walther Rathenau).

In this mix a violation of proof law is small potatoes, and I’m inclined to the opinion that Berlin and the proof house would tend to ignore any violation of which they became aware; especially if such a violation advanced Berlin’s goals.

I tend to agree that rules, in the after war Germany, went out the window.

"conduct political assignations of political opponents in Germany (notably that of Walther Rathenau)." May we assume English is not your native language and you meant "assassination"?

You may assume what you wish, but it might be less risky to assume I am a poor typist, or just have a overactive auto-correct and I don't proof read well :-)

Congrads Larry member since 2002! You should be awarded a luger wrist watch!

I actually go back even farther. I was a member of the forum that was this forum's predecessor:

http://www.lugerforum.com/

I liked this Luger, congrats! A couple of things I noticed, non relieved sear bar(early Military) and no safety paint. Enjoy!

Add this to breaking the Versailles treaty agreement.
The German Weimar government and military had found ways to clandestinely circumvent the weapons manufacturing rules set by the IMKK. In 1925 secret codes were developed to hide type of weapons and their manufacturers. The secret code consisted of a letter followed by a number. Mauser covert production codes started with S/42 in 1934. The “S” designated small arms such as the P.08. The “42": identified Mauser-Werke A.G. as the disguised illegal producer.