Toggle locked back with magazine out
 

Hi All,
A little problem with my shooter 1918 DWM
When shooting S&B 115 gr FMJRN
which has worked well in the past, the toggle has now locked back and I cannot release it to chamber a round. Magazine is out, gun is empty and still the toggle is back with the chamber open . Barrel is locked back , sideplate can be easily removed but toggle assembly not moving.
Has anyone seen this before?
Ideas?
Hear from you soon I hope
Thanks

Sounds like a broken hold open. Jammed in the "up" position. Not uncommon, from what I hear.

Have you removed the grips and looked inside???

Could the takedown lever be holding the receiver back???

Edit: Sounds like Doug is onto it... :)

I pulled the grips, but cannot see What's keeping it open :(
Takedown lever freely rotates as it should
I'llcheck a complete dissasembly YouTube video to get at the hold open?
Gave never done that before...

Try pushing down on the holdopen as far back as you can (red line points to farthest back I could go). Hold the toggle so it doesn't snap against your dowel or rod, whichever...

It helps if you relieve some of the toggle pressure while pushing the holdopen...

Well.... I got it!
Hold open is broken, toggle went forward. Then pulled back the toggle again; a piece fell out after pushing down as you said. One side is sheared off. Thanks :(
I've learned something :)
Can this gun be shot even without a hold open?
I should think so, only the toggle should not lock up after the last round.
Please advise?
Appreciate your help and your time :)
Glad this didn't happen with my one collector DWM :)

It can be shot safely. The first issue German Army Lugers did not have a hold open.
Ron

Great!
I appreciate all your help!
I can hear the rest of the hold open rattling in there... but I guess that's to be expected.
Thanks to all....

Go ahead and remove the remaining parts of the hold open so it doesn't work loose and jam up or damage your action while you are shooting.

Ok... I'll make an attempt :)
I have only done a simple field strip until now.
I'll proceed with caution :)

There was a similar broken holdopen just a few months ago, IIRC.

Tom Heller, Ed Tinker, Gerry Tomek, or another member with spare parts may be able to offer you a replacement holdopen.

The metal break surface looks like it has crystallized. :(
Well... it IS 99 years old!
Thanks for the help..... yes I'll contact one of you for a spare holdopen if I cannot get one here.
Once again, thanks :)
Is there any way this can be prevented?
Ammunition was certainly not too much- (I hope) S&B 115 gr. FMJRN standard velocity.
Or is it a case of "Happens sometimes with an older gun."?
"You takes your chances." ?

Bingo

"Go ahead and remove the remaining parts of the hold open so it doesn't work loose and jam up or damage your action while you are shooting."

Well, I removed the rest of the hold open in 1 piece, the little spur has indeed broken off :(
The little leaf spring is intact...

Well, if I had any temptations about shooting my collector 1917 DWM, they're gone now!!

Be sure to keep the spring. If you are going to replace the holdopen at some point the replacement will likely come without a spring, and repro holdopen springs do not fit very well. Originals can sometimes be unobtanium.

--Dwight

Thanks Dwight,
Yes I've kept both pieces including spring.
Maybe I'll use it without the hold open...but I would like to replace it...
VERY annoying....

Is there any chance I broke it when pushing down on it to free the toggle??
After shooting a round, the toggle locked up and back and did not release after that (also without the magazine) until I pushed out the broken spur. I don't recall hearing it snap.
Just trying to learn...
Thanks to all for answering all my questions :)

RS, I do have original Swiss made HOs with spring installed, which will work in your shooter. TH

Thanks you VERY much Lugerdoc!
I am checking with a Luger collector here in the area, who might have one.
If he doesn't have this part, I will be SURE to call on you :)

My shooter is a 1918 DWM: photos here below:

To me too. Seen it happen more than once.

And that is why I generally remove it when I go shooting.

Edit. Maybe I should have read the whole thread before posting.:o

Yes. Remove the holdopen before any shooting sessions.

Wish I had known one could shoot without the hold open BEFORE this!
Of course now it is all very obvious :(

Ah well. I have to learn.

BTY.... Are there any OTHER parts whose breakage can be prevented by removing them BEFORE shooting??

AND....

Is there a way to bond these two pieces back together to at least make the part functional?
Spot welding perhaps? The break is clean and the two pieces fit precisely together, no other missing pieces.

If you know someone who can TIG weld small parts, then perhaps the hold open can be salvaged. I usually remove my original numbered extractor and firing pin and shoot with mismatched replacements, then put the originals back in when I get home.

Nope. That was the one. But... you can replace breakable numbered parts with mismatched parts.

Number one being the extractor. Note that the replacement has to be adjusted to your pistol by a competent gunsmith knowledged in Lugers.

The other thing I do. I don't use any Lugers made before 1937 as shooters. But I do shoot a lot. :rolleyes:

PS. What gunbugs pointed out about the firing pin is very valid. It sliped my mind because I only use non original (to the pistol that is) competition prepared firing pins in my shooters

It is a real Pain in the .... to shoot without a hold open.

It was your shooter , right? That is why you bought it- just buy a replacement hold open an move on. JMHO.

Life is not without risk! :crying:

Yup, was my shooter, fortunately.
Was planning on a replacement HO in any case.
Thanks to all!

Really? Besides combat use, which is a very unlikely use for a Luger at this time and age, the hold open isn't really necessary. Even ghe German Army Board thought they could do without it. And that was with combat use in mind.

"I do have original Swiss made HOs with spring installed, which will work in your shooter. TH"

Hi Tom, checked here as mentioned for a HO, but no more to be had.
Yes I would like to place an order with you for an appropriate holdopen with spring.
Please let me know what information you need from me? Also payment terms of course.
Thanks

Maybe, I'm lazy, but I like to be able to lock the action open and see an empty chamber.

The Germans changed their mind- didn't they?:D

It is pretty much, even very necessary to insert a fully charged trommel mag!

But if one only loads 5 at a time and shoots targets, it would be fine.

JMHO.:cheers:

Well, for me I can do without the holdopen when I shoot.
I never load the mag with more than 5 rounds anyway, and I do tend to count when I shoot.
Of course I want to avoid inadvertant dry-firing...

Still, I think the gun should have a holdopen (even if now non matching) in the event that I would like to sell it. (which is not the case now for sure. I like this gun!!)

Had to go to the police station today to verify my serial numbers and the entries on my permit (part of Dutch weapons documentation) and we had a nice chat about Lugers in general. In general the Dutch police are very reasonable... and likeable people, at least the people I know now through the documentation procedure for weapons ownership. :)

There is this Survey of Broken Parts, which should also be included in the FAQ...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=6491

Although brief, that survey is very interesting! Dwight is to be commended for a job well done! What would also be interesting is to know the details of the guns on which these parts broke- manufacturing date, and ID e.g. "1918 DWM" I wonder what the lineup would look like... Are Erfurts, Mausers and DWM's all about equal? Or does one manufacturer show more breakage than the others?
Interesting......
Thanks a lot!! Very informative :)

equal- who knows, if you think about it a minute there are very few broken parts reported- so no significant conclusion can be drawn.

It is a little like lightning striking, you hear about it, but don't know anyone that has been struck! And it is really only important if it happens to you. JMHO.:D

well, that is what I do. :D

And about seeing an empty chamber, I can half open the action and it stays that way. I can even insert the mandatory empty chamber flag in between competition series.

I guess we'll never really have a handle on which manufacturer (if any) has "the most broken parts." Good point, so many of these guns over the years, and no, not everyone reports their broken part. Tom Heller might have the best idea, from his order records of replacement parts....
Ah well... this question will never really be conclusively answered... and yet I have seen the following statements:
"Mausers have better metallurgy than Erfurts or DWM's"
"Mauser concentrated on their metal quality."

And, all of these guns are just.... OLD! Even the Mausers!

The moral of this saga is: "Shoot 'em and enjoy 'em... but... you takes your chances..."

Pretty much enough has been said about this subject and that we will "never" know the answer.

But..., I'll just add - we will also never know how much abuse any pistol has endured when we buy it- so don't blame the pistol or the mfg.- it was probably the prior owner(s) that "done it"! ;)

And don't forget.

" Time wounds all heels " :D