Model 1900 Luger
 

I have a Luger 1900 #10006 with a Stock lug (like later P08s). Pistol came to me bit reworked (barrel, main spring and grip safety) and I have been building it back to form it originally was.
Pistol have no other marks than:
"Crown over B and crown over U" on left side of toggle. (stamps pictured in Proof 1 number 3)
I assume my pistol was originally made for 4 3/4" barrel and that kind I am hunting for!!!

Does anyone have more info about these early special order Lugers with Stock Lug?

Years ago I saw one auctioned in UK. That pistol # 10003 had 7" barrel, stock lug and sliding rear sight. Pistol was called "Special Service Luger" and it was sold extremely high price.

All help very welcome.

Please do not replace anything on this pistol. The 10000 series is believed to have been set aside as prototype pistols.
Please post numerous pics of this Luger.

Jasafn, I agree with Wes for a change. Especially if you see stylized initials (GL) on the back of the rear toggle link. TH

Janne,
The gentlemen have given you very sound advice. It is extremely important that you post pictures before you make any modification to your pistol. It needs to be properly identified since, as Wes stated, it is possible that it is a prototype piece and may not originally have had a 4 3/4" barrel. Until you can post some pictures, can you give some details on the barrel, grip safety and mainspring? Thank you.

Gentlemen,

Thank you all for your help. I will take some pictures a.s.a.p. but I can tell this pistol never had any special rear sight. I am not sure about the original barrel but the one it came with was done from m/20 barrel no doubt. Grip safety was cut off and modified for safety catch new way. Leaf main spring was replaced with later P08s main spring with some tiny modification. All these reworks are removed now but nothing original was not ruin. I got the pistol about year ago and I have been doing research ever since. Parts have no serial numbers except upper receiver has #06 underneath. All main parts have same number "2".
The tiny leaf spring of grip safety was removed during the rework and when I bought a 1900 model spare part from States I got 1/3 too wide part.

There is no GL on rear of toggle. That I checked first when I bought this piece.

Janne,

Your description of your Luger raises some fascinating possibilities, given the serial number range of the gun.

The Dutch trials of 1899/1900 included a Luger with a non-standard barrel length, probably 155-160mm, and was fitted with a shoulder stock. No serial number or surviving example of this Luger has been found, only the description in the trials report.

From the 1905 Dutch trials, at least two surviving prototype examples of 1900 Lugers modified to incorporate a coil mainspring and eliminate the grip safety are known: serial numbers 10127B and 10130B. These serial numbers are a bit higher than your 10006 and include the â??Bâ?� suffix, but they do not have a stock lug as yours does, so the possibility exists that your Luger may be a variation of the Dutch prototypes.

Since you state that in your Luger the â??Leaf main spring was replaced with later P08s main spring with some tiny modificationâ?�, and â??Grip safety was cut off and modified for safety catch new wayâ?�, it sounds very much like the modifications made for the 1905 Dutch prototypes. Do the modifications to your Luger look like the work of a professional gunsmith?

We all will be very interested in the photos of your Luger when you can provide them!!!

Hi, Ron and guys,

You asked if the mods look like the work of a gunsmith.

A better question would be whether the mods look like tool room work. It is not always easy to tell, but there are signs that experienced collectors look for that are not really possible to describe. Those changes sound like the kinds of things experimental tool rooms do rather than the kinds of things gunsmiths do for customers.

I fully agree that the gun should not be changed without serious research and that any parts taken off be retained for re-installation.

The serial number "2" alone would be an indication that this is not a run-of-mine pistol that some "bubba" hacked on.

As for the "GL", IIRC that was put on special guns made up for Luger's personal use or to be given as gifts. A tool room gun would almost certainly NOT have the initials and could look rather crude since the idea was to prove a concept rather than to make up a gun for sale.

Jim

Could this piece fit into the 7 inch barrel Comerical 1900 (~500 made) with stock lug, mainly for South American export (according to AArron Davis' book, page 6), or the "American Eagle" version as listed #14 (7453), page 2 of Ralph's new list #243, somehow ending up in Finland??? All interesting speculation. Would love to see pictures!

Based on the information provided, it appears that Mr. Salopuro's Luger is a 1900 Commercial Model in the low 10000 serial range with a 7" barrel and a fixed sight which has received some modifications. According to the serial numbers I have recorded, serial #10004 (in Finland with 'GL') and #10005 (in England with 'GL') are both tangent sight models and serial #10007 is a fixed sight model. It is my opinion that between 5-10 tangent sight pistols were made in the very low 10000 serial range with none higher than serial number 10010. It is recorded that there are more fixed sight models than tangent sights models in the 10000 serial range.

There is no strong evidence that these pistols were destined to South America market and they could have been sold to any client/customer in any part of the world.

It will be interesting to observe the modifications made to this pistol.

Albert

Albert,

I think you are exactly correct about the probable origin of Mr. Salopuroâ??s Luger. Thank you for the listing of known 10000 range (without the B suffix) Lugers. It is interesting that Janneâ??s Luger fills in the gap of known pieces:
10003 - Observed in a UK auction by Mr. Salopuro
10004 â?? Finland
10005 â?? England
10006 â?? Finland (Salopuro)
10007 â?? Fixed sight model (Is this the one in Kenyonâ??s â??Luger: The Multi-National Pistolâ?�?)

Kenyon postulates that the range of these Lugers is 10,000-10,050. Bob Simpson had one of the 10000 series for sale for some time that came with a reproduction â??push-buttonâ?� stock. I do not know if he still has it. As I understand it, these early Lugers will not fit an artillery, navy or later carbine style stock. The stock lug grooves of the 10000-series Lugers are machined differently and the dwell, or notch, in the lug that is engaged by the stock iron cam is either very shallow or totally absent. I think that the attribution of these early pieces to a South American market is that the provinance, according to Kenyon, of some of these pieces originated in South America, and the existence of a factory manual for the 7â?�/Push-button stock Luger that is written in Spanish.

I am still taken with the modifications to Janneâ??s Luger, since it sounds so much like the Dutch prototypes. It does not necessarily mean that it was a Dutch piece (I have modified a 1900 frame to adapt the coil mainspring myself) but given the era of the piece, it is a possibility. I really want to see pictures of the gun!

Ron,

According to my notes, serial #10007 used to belong to Mr. Serri, and it is not the one in the MNP book. Interestingly, Geoff has the correct stock for this pistol which is on his tangent sight model serial #10005. The push-button stock (no holster) came out from Mr. Visser's collection in the late 1980's.

Apparently, the finest fixed sight model known to exist is serial #10034 which has its matching stock/holster and straps which surfaced out of Chile in the 1980's.

You are correct in pointing out that these 10000 series pistols with push-button stock lugs will not accept a later stock, and the size and position of the notch will vary between each pistol. In most cases, the attaching iron from another 10000 series Luger will not allow the button to lock/snap into place if used on a different Luger in the same serial range.

Although a spanish manual is known to exist and a few of these Lugers have come out of South America, we cannot assume that this was the main market for these fixed/tangent sight Lugers. I have seen another manual in French, and I would not be surprised if one existed in German, English or another foreign language.

I have heard similar 'theories' on the Mauser Flatside 20-Shots because a few have come out of Central and South America, but these 'theories' are starting to fade and the same likely applies to the fixed/tangent sight Lugers.

I would like to discover where serial #10008 and #10009 are snoozing!

Cheers,
Albert

Jasafn,
your pistol seems very interesting. Please let us know if the stock has a push-button instead of the usual pole-lock.
Ciao

Hi everyone,

Here is some pictures:
Stock lug:

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006stocklug.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006stocklug.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006numbers.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006numbers.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Left side view:

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006left.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006left.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Right side:

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006right.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006right.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Unfortunately I need to low pixels to get fit down to 180KB. (NICE photos Janne, Photos in the last four posts have been thumbnailed by Admin-JS to appear in each post rather than the URL for the photo...just click on the photo to see the full size image)

The numbers "2" inside the pistol.
number in breech shows baddly in the picture:

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006number2s.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006number2s.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

(This photo has also been thumbnailed to appear...click on the photo to see the full size image. Admin-JS)

J. Salopuro,
Do you still have the barrel?

J. Salopuro,

In one of the photos, it appears this pistol had a grip safety at one time. Was the metal filled in (with metal) or is there still a gap along the edge of the left side wooden grip panel...?

I cannot tell from looking at the photos...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">... and I have been building it back to form it originally was. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">

What do you mean? What alterations have you done to this pistol?
How was the spring modified?

According to one image, the grip safety area has not been filled in, but the grip safety is obviously missing.

I notice that the stock lug is not for a push button stock because I do not see any notch on the outer edge. Ron, your comments would be welcome on this point.

The '1', '2' and '5' at various locations have nothing to do with the serial number and I have observed similar numbers on other early Lugers. Probably it has something to do with an assembly line or an inspector. Also notice the 'good old flaming bomb proof' just under the chamber!

It is unfortunate that the barrel is removed or missing as well as the finish having been affected by the use of an improper protecting product. Apparently, the straw is strong on various parts which is inconsistent to the quality of the blue which demonstrates that a wrong product was applied to the pistol.

Hopefully, with the right steps, the pistol could be returned to its original configuration and properly restored.

Cheers,
Albert

Here is two grip safeties. One in right is the reworked that came with pistol. This is the barrel that was removed. This may cut the wings of speculations of Dutch-rework ( or I will never buy anything made in Holland) :)

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006gripsafety.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006gripsafety.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Other side of the reworked grip safety. Notice the wider soldered plate on the original part. Safety catch has a pin that operates in the hole that is made thru grip safety. This way side safety works without grip safety function. Ofcourse grip safety spring and a jut on side of grip safety were removed.

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006oldgripsafety.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006oldgripsafety.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

This picture gives idea how the main spring modification was done.
Notice the area behind magazine well that bears heat marks. Middle of that you find melted place. Both sides over the main springs notch was welded iron supports that hold the P08 spring and spindle. There was P08 joint-hook attached with pin thru rear grip frame to operate between spindle and toggles "S-hook"

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006frameL.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006frameL.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Albert
Wow! This is what I call a â??story book Lugerâ?�. If you could read all the information displayed, what a story it would tell.

I was a bit surprised that the stock lug looks very much like the later stock attachment style. However, I am still grasping at straws hoping that more details can be uncovered. Upon looking at the close up photo of the right side of the Luger, it appears that a detent may be machined into the top of the slot of the lug that would be engaged by the push-button catch. This would be a departure from the notch on the outer edge, but as you have pointed out, it appears that no two of these 10000-series have identical stock attachments. The lug definitely has had the cam notch cut into the back of the lug, possibly as a later modification to accommodate a standard stock. Or perhaps this one used the anterior cam notch originally. Who knows unless the original stock turns up?

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Detent.jpg

I am not sure there is a â??flaming bombâ?� proof on the chamber. Looking closely, most of the rounded marks look like various strikes of the â??2â?� inspectors stamp.

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Marks.jpg

Janne,
Thank you for the additional pictures. The safety modification was clever, but thankfully it did not require any modifications to the frame and the original type safety can be installed.

Thanks guys for a REALLY interesting discussion. This model Luger and this particular specimen certainly has a history that would fill a book.

Too bad this one is in Finland... Getting Thor to work his restoration magic on it would be great!

Let us see a pic of the front grip strap.
This may give a clue as to the origin of the stock lug.
The metal of this pistol is extremely good. No dents or scratches.

Judging from the pics, I suspicion that the bottom 2/3 of the grip has been welded on (replaced). This is totally just a suspicion. Wish I had it in my hand so that I could examine it closely. I believe that it was not left 'reblued' because of the weld being exposed by the rust blue process. This is just my suspicion.
I am most probably dead wrong!

Gentlemen,
The more I look at jasafn's last pic post, the more I am convinced that the lower 66% of the grip has been replaced by a welded on grip.

Gentlemen,
This is bogus!
The discoloration is from heat.

I will post a few pic shortly.

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/wels_frameL.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/wels_frameL.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/weld_right.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/weld_right.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/weld_back_strap.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/weld_back_strap.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

The front grip strap is filed flat! It should show to the front of the grip panel on a profile view!

Radius at back lower of trigger guard is not round, and indicates trouble shaping the front grip strap.

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/weld_trig_guard.jpg

Front grip strap should be much more rounded and protrude further forward of the wooden grip panel.

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/...ront_strap.jpg

This pistol is worth absolutely nothing!

I would agree with Wes that the modifications of the front strap are extremely suspect... probably the result of filing to remove a unit marking... or as he has theorized... to dress down the welding from a grip replacement.

A shooter... the collector value has plummeted due to the gunsmithing...

just my
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/twocents.jpg

Wes,

What about the up front disclosure that a coil spring modification had been welded into the frame and was removed? What about the early 10000-series serial number that properly has a stock lug? What about in additon to the weld marks, the holes made to support the bell-crank assembly for the coil spring remain as evidence of the modification? What about the fact that it would require an equally rare 1903/04 Navy grip safety old model frame with stock lug to replace the "bottom 2/3 of the grip", or do you think maybe that several pieces have been welded together to create a leaf spring frame with stock lug rather than one big 2/3 chunk?

You may very well be right, but the above questions come to mind. It just seems that if this is an attempt to create a "bogus" piece it is a pretty clumsy attempt. I think I will take your very considered obsevations under advisement, pursue if the presence of the stock detent is/is not actually there or if it is an illusion in the photo, await other responses, and reserve judgement until then. I understand your doubt in this age of widespread faking of scarce guns, but I guess I am still na�¯ve enough to think sometimes things are what they seem to be, and hope against the odds that occasionally a heretofore lost rare example turns up. It is fun when it does and not unexpected when it doesn't.

Did a little computer darkroom magic and the negative version of this photo clearly shows the discoloration from welding that Wes described...

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Weldingnegative.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Weldingnegative.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Ron,
I do not believe in the conspiracy of fakery that chokes the collecting community. I have heard men at gun shows discuss the imprint of this or that stamp, size of lettering, evidence of overstamping, ad nauseum, ad hysteria. It is repulsive.
This present example pictured above is so clumsily executed that I cannot help but come to the conclusion of heavy handed tampering in an attempt to reproduce what a person has seen as genuine, not knowing that his pistol had just as much value in its original state as some high priced example of different configuration.
If pictures disclose this botched welding job so easily, there is no telling what a hands on examination would confirm.

Thanks Wes, your points are well taken and I agree the paranoia is repulsive.

I do not deny the frame has been welded, I guess I just think the welding may have only involved the coil spring modification. An old model frame with a stock lug requires much more fabricaton than just grafting on the lower 2/3 of the frame. Multiple weld sites would be apparent, particularly in the area of the stock lug. If the addition of the stock lug to an old model frame was done so skillfully as to be difficult to detect, why was the upper portion so "botched"?

As to the front strap protrusion beyond the grip, I think that is more the fault of the fit of the replacement grip than the frame. The frame at that point is almost paper thin and it would be difficult to flatten it that much and not cut through it.

I think I will still wait and see a while longer.

Ron,
I can appreciate your consideration of the stock lug and front grip strap. I also look forward to the input of others who will digest this pistol more closely than I. My respect of your opinion has caused me to stand down from this discussion for a while.
Regards,
wes

Wes and other X-files fans,

This pistol has no re-attached gripframe. I am not blind, stupid or person who tries to spoil great hobby with fakes or untrue stories. Maybe I need to take more pictures of the piece. Front part of grip frame have no heat marks. Take a look.

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006frameF.jpg

Ofcourse rear part of grip frame has heat marks... there was some metal pieces attached by welding.

Hi,

With reference to the Dutch mainspring modification: Two notches were filed from the 'struts' behind the magazine, where a machined bridge was fitted in. The 'Dutch' modification required no welding.