30 luger point of aim
 

I have read that at the factories luger sights were adjusted to POA at 50 meters. My 30 luger will not hit a 12 inch paper target at 25 yards. I don't have a larger target to see where the bullets are hitting. Do you think I should aim higher? Or lower? At 50 meters I would think the trajectory would be high at 25 yards.
Thanks for any info.

And no info on cartridges used so we have to WAG ;-)

How about a shot or two at half distance?

Lighter faster bullets tend to hit lower.
Aim for the top edge of the target and see if that does it.

My 4" will hit about 2½-3" high at 27yds with factory speed/weight ammo. 93gr @1200fps

That is odd.:confused:

Most will hit the X ring of a issf pistol target with a 6 o'clock hold at 25 meters. And those targets are 10,5x10,5 inches.

50 meters.... that is over 150 feet - that is a long ways

25 meters sounds more what I'd think is a long distance.


but i can't remember how far the books say

The military 9mm were indeed sighted for 50 meters.

The P08, when introduced, was sighted in at 100 meters. This was found to be impractical and was shortened to 50 meters in 1913. Most of the earlier guns were recalled to the Erfurt Armory and their front sight blades were changed for ones that were 0.5mm taller (this was done at the same time as they were retro fitted with a hold-open). Guns that were so altered were stamped with a small Erfurt inspection mark on the front sight base.
Norm

Major Tom, I can't answer your question on 30 Luger POA, but if i am having problems hitting a target, I just get much closer. I make whatever adjustment necessary to sights or my aim and progressively increase my distance.

Keep us posted on what happens next.

100 than 50, guess it just sounds far to me :)

The alternative is to stand your ground and slip a big piece of cardboard behind the target while dialing it in! Yes, we expect a review/report!

Dave, I hear you. Maybe the Major could try the cardboard from a large refrigerator container. :)

Getting a larger target is not difficult!

Box, card board, tape two targets together vertically.

Let your imagination run wild.

But I'll guess you need to aim at least 18" lower.

I was shooting Fiochi and PPU ammo. The range where I shoot has large gravel spread from the 25 yard line to target stands. My luger literally throws ejected brass in a very high arc over my right shoulder. Trying to find expensive brass in the gravel is near impossible. But, under the firing line we have a roof and that bounces the brass down to within 8 foot of where I stand, so easy to find. And yes, when I stand at 10 yards the bullets will hit the 12 inch target, but again, the brass loss is unacceptible to me.

Most multi-marts will have a sporting goods dep't with fishing gear, including minnow/fish nets. Get a big one [12 inch or so] and fabricate a stand to hold it right next to your Luger while you fire. You may need to make spreaders out of straws to hold it open enough to actually catch the brass.

Mine sits on the bench. The base is an old Xmas tree stand with folding legs. The fish net is screwed to the stand.

Works great. :)

When I happen to go to an open air range where I have a similar problem, I spread out a large square of nylon on the gravel.

I was suffering about 15-20% .30 Luger brass loss when I first started using the setup in the side yard at home. Grass of a regular lawn just eats the stuff right up. I made a small structure of screen panels from old, over-size sliding doors that gave me a gabled roof over the top of me and a screened in right side. Tarp floor. That sorta worked, but some would still squeak out beyond its margins. The setup was on wheels, but still a pain to set up.

What now works best now is to mow that section of lawn at the lowest or second lowest setting on the bagging mower's wheels. Keeping it short also seems to encourage the spread of moss, which is an even better surface for retrieving empties. I can pretty much find all of it now, if not right after I shoot it , then the next time or time after that.

I will soon be able to leave no environmental footprint at all, after I finish up the bullet trap. Stay tuned for that, I'm hoping to complete it this week.

What I really want to know.

How did they hit on target? Hi; low; left; right? All over?:rolleyes:

Silly question... Are you 100% positive it's chambered for.30?

From 10 yards the rounds were hitting about 2 inches high dead center. Yes, it is a 30 luger for sure.

OK. Thanks.

And that is consistent with a 6 o'clock on the target I mentioned above shooting at 25 meters, just a little more than 25 yards.

Norme , I read in some book 75 meters before 1913 and then reduce to 50 meters after
So wich is right ?

My 1920 Commercial (30 Luger, of course) is good for a 6 o'clock hold at 50 feet (the indoor bullseye distance). I haven't had the gun long and only have used Fiocci purple and black box.

Would it make a difference if one places the tip of the front sight at the top of the rear "V" or at the very bottom of the "V"?

6 o'clock hold or direct on as one of the two choices above?

I use the classic 6 o'clock hold: top of front sight even with the tops of the rear sight "ears." POA right below the bull. If you put the top of the front sight at the very bottom of the V, you are depressing the muzzle and will shoot low. I do almost all my shooting at 50 feet, about 17 yards.

Huge difference. But that is no way to use the sights. You can only get consistent shots aligning the tip of the front sight with the top of the rear sight. They are hard enough to use even that way.:rolleyes:

6 o'clock hold.

Bill,

I too was taught on occasion to use the 6 o'clock hold, I hold on the bottom of the black where I get to shoot. One never knows how others "hold" their sights.

Some people are just natural shots, about all I can say on some folks I have known. A bit unorthodox in their methods with pistols they were, but one cannot take away their ability to shoot very accurately and resultant hits.

Guess the old Luger was really intended as a battle pistol,when all was said and done. Sometimes in those circumstances, sights are not really necessary. Remember instinctive shooting lessons in the service, quick kill I think it was referred to?

As you know, if a pistol does not shoot the way one wants, there are always methods to move the poi, some easy to do, some harder to do.

I guess it is interesting from a historical point of view of what was intended in the original design, ie read the books senerio like I have been told before here. But if a Luger does not shoot the way I want it to, I modify it until it gives results that suit me.

Who am I to say how one should shoot really? Just kinda glad people still shoot at all in these times. Hold of the sights vary with folks, along with the point of impact.

Thanks for your knowledgeable response.

Rick W.

Rick,
I agree, what ever hold and sight alignment that works for the individual is the "best" for them . :)

My .30 cal alphabet Luger shoots about 6 inches high at 25 yards with the front sight at the bottom of the V. But it is extremely consistent, not hard at all to hold 3-4" groups two-handed.

I compete one handed. And 4 inch groups won't do, not if I intend to win.:rolleyes:

Shooting a 1906 Swiss commercial: 0.31g (4.78gr) of N340 behind a 93gr coated bullet and either Muron or Fiocchi primers. I must hold at 6 o'clock on the 4/5 ring of the target in #18 post, two handed and, in good days, stay in the 8 at 25m; the blade is even with the top of the V notch. If I use FMJ bullets, it tends to shoot an inch lower, maximum, therefore the choice of the 5 ring.

Like I said,
Aim where it "works" for you, your target and distance, your ammo, and your pistol!

They are all variables that must come together!

First, I don't know what prompted me to identify the Luger as a Swiss commercial! It is a Swiss military, sorry.
Next, I'll take out the 1929 Swiss military, use the same reloads and see if they arrive in the same place; this particular Luger has a beautiful trigger pull, perceptively better than the 1906 of my previous post.

Took the 06/29 Swiss military out to the range yesterday, same load as in my previous post#28; poi at 6 o'clock: most grouped in the upper half of the bull. Quite happy with the results.

With the Luger, it is not necessary to shoot/aim with a stretched arm.

In fact, the original shooting stance used back in the day was with the arm a bit bent. Simply reduce the distance between the eye and the sights by 'pulling' the gun towards you by flexing the upper/lower arm a little bit more.

The Germans referred to this as the 'tea pot stance', because, with the body slightly rotated, the shooting arm bent and placing the free arm in the lower back for support. You look a bit like a stylized tea pot, hence the name.

It actually works quite well.

This test target says 50 Meters.

Anschussentfernung 50m.

Added information
 

It should have been read this way:" It had come to the attention of the Gewehr-Prüfungskommission that Pistols 08 of DWM manufacture and of Erfurt production differed from each other considerably in respect of point of aim. The point blank sighting range differed between 80 and 110 m. No remedial action had been taken so far, as the G.P.K had been conducting trials to ensure that fitting of the hold-open would not affect the point of aim (Note. meaning shooting trials).Beeing satisfed of this, it suggested to the ministry of War on 24 May 1913 that on accasion of test-firing of altered pistols the point blank range should be standardized at 50 m. For this purpose, front sights of different heights wer to be used:


15.5 mm (minimum height),
15.8 mm (standard height), and

16.1 mm (maximum height),


in each case measured from the centerline of the bore. On 20 October 1913, the Gëwehr-Prüfungskommission revised their findings, the heights of front sights were now to be:


15.1 mm (minimum),
15.4 mm (standard), and
15.7 mm (maximum)" ...

Gortz & Sturgess' comments WRT sight zero can be interpreted a couple of ways. They seem to suggest that DWM zeroed their pistols for 80 meters while Erfurt zeroed for 110 meters. OR they may have meant that guns made by both would zero somewhere between 80 & 110 meters. The explanation is on page 1100 of G&S.

Regardless, the decision was made to replace the front sight blade of already issued Lugers to zero at 50 meters and newly manufactured guns would leave the factory zeroed for 50 meters. The sight change for existing guns was done in conjunction with the modification to install the hold open on those Lugers without them.