P04 help please:
 

Hi Guys,

This is my first post on this forum and I am hoping that you can help me out. I am just finishing off an Inventor 3D assembly of a Luger P04.

Unfortunately I have not been able to find any dimensioned drawings of the adjustable sight on the rear toggle. I also need details of the 150mm barrel front sight, I believe this to be higher than the standard 100mm P08 barrel?

Additionally, what would put the icing on the cake for me would be a genuine Sr. No (or series to choose from) and dimensioned details of the parts of the service issue wooden stock.

If anyone can help me out, or point me in the direction of a web link, that would be very much appreciated.

Regards & best wishes,

Dave

Attached is a very quick render using Inventor. Normally I would create a photo realistic one using Keyshot. I will do that when the model is complete.

This is the kind of imagery I am looking to produce:

Welcome Dave,
nice work.
If you put your location in your profile, you might be able to link up with a member who has a navy for you to measure.

Thank you for your welcome Don, it is much appreciated.

As you suggest, I have now included my location in my profile, it is West Yorkshire, UK.

With the situation regarding firearms in the UK I think it unlikely that anyone will approach me with an offer to measure a P04, but a nice thought nevertheless.

Prior to the ban on most handguns in the UK I held a firearms certificate for 25 years and owned and shot many pistols and rifles (Colt 1911 MkIV Series 70, Smith & Wesson 629 .44Mag, S&W Model 14 Target Master .38Spcl, S&W 9mm Mini-Gun, Colt Python .357Mag, just to name a few). Unfortunately a Luger was not one of them. The nearest I got to one was once being offered a C96 Mauser "Red 9" to shoot - that is probably going to be next on my list of guns to model.

Now the only time I get to shoot is when I visit my eldest son in Tampa Florida. You are so lucky to have a constitution, and the 2nd Amendment in the U.S.

Sorry, I am starting to waffle now, so I will go, but before I do, may I ask if you know of a source of high quality blueprints for WWII era guns. I don't mind paying a reasonable amount for them, but they must be legible.

Regards,

Dave

Regards,

Dave

Dave in UK, The original Navy 6" barrels had a higher front sight base, so that a standard PO8 front sight blade could be used with the ajustable 2 position navy rear sight. if you are near Kent in the UK, you might check with CMR (Charles Roscoe) to see if he currently has any Navy lugers in stock that you could take some measurements in his store. TH

Dave, Welcome to the Forum..Out of curiosity..what is the purpose of these?

What kind of dimensions ..? Photo's as well ? Measuring a Navy rear sight could get extensive with serrations and numbers and all the rest.

I have 3 original Imperial Navy serial numbered stocks.

I have the complete set of 1913 P.08 Luger fully dimensioned blueprints available for download. The only parts that differ from the standard P.08 and the Navy Luger are the barrel, and the rear link with integral adjustable sight. Unfortunately, I have not been able to acquire the blueprints for those parts... and I have been looking for years...(make that decades)...

Regardless, the blueprints I have will help you to make sure everything else in your rendered model is accurate in size, including bevel edges, and radius...

I spent a couple of hundred hours of my spare time cleaning those scans to make them very readable...You can PM me for ordering instructions if you want them. The cost is $25.00 USD...

Hi Guys,

Firstly I will answer Jerry's question - I am the managing director of my own mechanical design company here in the UK and whilst I am "officially" retired I like to keep my hand in modelling things that are of particular interest to me, in this case the P08/P04. Every firearm that I have modelled has been a challenge in it's own right, so it keeps my interest piqued.

Another model I am just completing is a fully automatic AR15.

If I can't find workable drawings then I sometimes have to use model parts that have been created by others and available on-line.

Inevitably though these are not good enough, or have errors, that I have to correct and build into "working" 3D assemblies. By that I mean that they would function exactly as originally designed if they were manufactured. There is no "fudging" in my models. Near enough is not good enough. It has to be exact.

John S, I am not surprised that it took you so long to tidy up those blueprints. My P08/P04 is created from the original Mauser factory drawings and apart from the changes I want to make to create a P04 should be spot on. There are no interferences in the assembly and everything should "move" and "operate" as intended.

Thank you for offering me your blueprints, but I don't really need them except for the items mentioned in my original post.

If I cannot find this information then I will change the 150mm barrel for a 100mm version that I have already created, and call the model complete.

Jerry Burney - to model the parts I would need the factory drawings with legible dimensions. I have studied several videos of how the sight operates so assembling the parts would not be a issue.

Regards all,

Dave





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Dave, Interesting..Firstly I will answer Jerry's question - I am the managing director of my own mechanical design company here in the UK and whilst I am "officially" retired I like to keep my hand in modelling things that are of particular interest to me. But this only begs the question..what do you DO with these models? Sell them? Use them for screen savers? Publish them on yue tube? Desk drawer them when finished? Other than your interest piqued is there any other use?

to model the parts I would need the factory drawings with legible dimensions.I am not aware of any that exist for the Imperial Navy rear sight? OR the Navy stock. There might be though..Just I ain't ever seen em.

Hi Jerry,

No, I have never considered selling my models or using them as screen savers.

My company web site does feature a few in the "Serious designs just for fun" section of the gallery (www.mdltd.org) and one of these, the Bentley BR2 WWI rotary engine appeared in Dr. Tom Dine's (of the Bentley Foundation) book "W O Bentley Rotary Aero Engines" on P.19. I was happy and flattered to supply that FOC as the author personally signed a copy of his book for me.

An awful lot of my work is covered by NDA's and so I struggle to find models to illustrate some of my skills, hence this section of my web site.

From my POV as I did not create the designs of some of these models I am reluctant to take any credit, but I do enjoy recreating them in a computer environment - sort of virtual machining of the parts (if you understand what I mean). If I create a design that has been requested by a customer then that is an entirely different story - I charge for my time in that case.

Given the necessary workshop equipment I have the skills to reproduce most of these designs myself, but I am happy to do so virtually.

If any reader has experience of solid modelling then they will know immediately why I have been in love with it for 36+ years. It is not something that is easily explained to someone that has not used it. It's an itch I have to scratch!


Regards all,

Dave

Hi Cirelaw,

I am not certain why two versions of the front sight are shown on Pg.2 of the blueprints. That caused me some confusion. "kleinst" translates as "midget" or "sub-miniature" and the other sight is obviously the "normal" one fitted to most lugers.

Can anyone enlighten me as to the reason for the mini version?

Regards,

Dave

Dave, I mearly found this site and posted it! Someone should have your answer~ Awesome!! Eric

They would only apply to the 1916/1917 Navy P.04s - and don't forget the toggle pin flange is bigger on a late P/04

Setting aside the original 1904 version, I think most Navy collectors would consider the 1906 Navies to be the "typical" P.04. But they are much different from a P.08. The frames are different, the receiver is longer, they have a grip safety, etc. etc.

Apologies for my tardy reply to your comments gentlemen. A holiday and return to find my internet was down due to a line fault for several days caused the delay.

I thank you for your comments and insight. As it was proving impossible to find the details I required for the P04 I have changed the barrel back to the standard 4" version and am now just completing all of the stampings for it to be a model of a known de-activated 1942 "byf" Luger P08.

Once these details are completed the model will be taken into Keyshot for photo realistic imaging.

For my next project I am torn between a PPSH Russian sub-machine gun or a P38. Once again finding the drawings will be the issue. The M4 AR15 I was also working on is nearly complete, but I recently had to completely re-model the downloaded version of the upper receiver as it was very poorly modelled.

I will make an effort in the near future to come back to this very post and let you see some images of both of the finished and rendered models.

Meanwhile if anybody knows of a full set of legible drawings for either a P38 or a PPSH please let me know. The ones of the P38 illustrated on the web sites in some of your posts above are unfortunately not clear enough. If they improve when they paid for and downloaded please let me know.

Regards & best wishes to you all.

Dave

Dave, do you know if these models could be imported to Blender?

I would be interested in playing with a cutaway version of the gun, like the model you showed above of the M1911a1...

Dave

I only wanted to congratulate on your efforts to create such an interesting model of a Luger P04 Naval.

Cheers

Hi Guys,

The 1911 model was very much based on my experiences of owning a Colt Mk IV Series 70 and what I would have liked as my ideal gun - a Colt Combat Commander with a compensator to bring the barrel length up to the full 5" standard length was my idea.

My own gun (the real one) was heavily customised: satin chrome (frame) and liquid ink blue slide. The sight rail was bead blasted before bluing and it was fitted with BoMar BMCS adjustable combat sites. The feed ramp was smoothed and polished and the ejection port lowered. The trigger was an adjustable target version with the release pressure set at 3.5lbs. It had a ring hammer and beaver tail grip with a flat mainspring housing. The magazine well was also funnelled and each mag fitted with protective bumpers.

Most of these features were incorporated into the model, but I did opt for non-adjustable sights and gas porting of the barrel and slide. That would mean the recoil spring could be lightened a bit whilst making the lock time slightly faster. If I was in the States, and not in the UK, I might have had both versions made.

I use Autodesk's Inventor Pro for all my modelling and the files that are outputted to the internet are usually IGS, STP or Parasolid. None of these formats contain a history tree and therefore modification can be difficult (if not impossible without re-creation), especially when it comes to some parts that have coincident fillets.

Without a history tree you cannot see how the model was constructed, in what order, and you cannot move backwards and forwards within it to modify the parts. All modifications have to be additional of subtractive.

One other things about this model is that the chequering on the grips and frame will not appear in an outputted model as these were solely applied within the "Keyshot" photo realistic rendered that I use.

I have no experience with "Blender" so I am afraid you will have to check what file formats you can accept.

Sergio, thanks for your interest, it is unfortunate that my efforts came to nought. If the information ever becomes available I WILL create a P04. For the moment I am moving onto pastures new.

Finally, I have included one more image of the 1911 that is easier to see the finished article without the see through look.

Regards all,

Dave

Perhaps it just means "shorter" in this instance; there were multiple height front sights for targeting the luger.

On my drawings(may be different from above" the "normal" sight is 7mm, the Kleinstmass sight is 6.7mm, and the "grossmass" sight is 7.3mm Tall.:cheers:

Maybe you can check with Othais at C&Rsenal, of Youtube fame.
He and his team make animations of all the firearms they review and could be an excellent source for you.

He is active and approachable on social media, like reddit. Perhaps you could email him and get all the measurements you need?

http://candrsenal.com/

Hi,

The "square" grips look a little odd.

Sieger

Well, he did say it was not finished, and commented further on the grips later.

Hello Sieger,

Thank you for your comment. I must admit that I had not thought about the grips much and I agree that the majority of them were more rounded than on my model. In a "tongue in cheek" defence of that I have a copy of official drawings showing both the curvier and flatter topped versions.

This "flat" version drawing is from Mauser Werke A.G., Obendorf, and has the number 1MD06-61 - that might be complete, or not, as the edge of my drawing is missing. It has a definite flat top with plain borders and the chequering does not start until some distance in from the edge.

There is also seen a version used on the Russian front that was flat topped, straight "grooved" and made out of Bakelite plastic - see attached image.

I might revisit the grips with a view to creating a "proper" rounded version with edge to edge chequering.

Thank you for your input.

Regards,

Dave

Hi Guys,

I promised you a look at the finished "gun" - attached is a Keyshot rendering:

Regards,

Dave

Looking good, but suggest a correction...the chamfer on the forward receiver needs to have the same radius as the rest of the receiver in that area, not a straight line.
Ron

David,

If you get around to making a sectional view of your rendering of the Luger as you did for the pistol in your second post, I would very much appreciate a copy. It would go well with the example that was presented to me by David Kimble. His illustration was used on the front cover of the July 1989 issue of Guns and Ammo magazine to accompany his excellent article in that magazine on Old Model Lugers. David is one of the top illustrators in his field, and has produced outstanding sectional illustrations of exotic cars, steam engines and mechanical devices for such magazines as “Car and Driver” and other transportation publications. His illustrations are hand drawn using airbrush techniques that few artists can equal.

I apologize for the reflections in the framed illustration.

Ron

Hi Ron,

I have corrected the gun thanks to your kind comments. I expect that I will create a cross- sectional view, although the model of the Colt was see-through not sectional, it means a bit of work to create multiple sections, but as/when I do I will let you know.

Regards,

Dave

Dave,
A see-through rendering is what I meant by "sectional view"...a rose by any other name :)
Ron

Almost there...a couple more suggestions if I may

Perhaps these pictures will help; less the defect of course.:thumbup:

Hi Ron,

Thank you for the pictures, but I am going to leave my model as it is.

My reasons for that decision are several:

1) The geometry involved.

2) Your example was clearly hand filed, not machined, and if you look at the at the side view and project forward the deepest point of the "groove" (which is very close to tangential to the side of the slide, as per my model) to the very front of slide I believe you would get exactly what I have modelled.

3) Depending on when the gun was made, and by whom, different methods of production were employed. In fact I have seen examples where the "grooves" do not match from side to side.

Interestingly enough I have drawings of a horizontal groove cut in the top front edge of the slide (forward of where you see 1920 on your gun) that does not appear to have any use. I have seen it on several guns, but it is absent from others. I am beginning to think that there are far too many variations of the P.08, especially as quality dropped later in the war.

Please see the attached image of an actual gun slide that is pretty much a match for my model. This particular gun is clearly made to a high standard as all the tooling marks have been polished out:

Regards,

Dave

Dave
That was Don, not Ron, that posted the photo of the Luger marked 1920. :)

"In fact I have seen examples where the "grooves" do not match from side to side"...those "examples" didn't leave the factory that way, Lugers are symmetrical.

"Interestingly enough I have drawings of a horizontal groove cut in the top front edge of the slide (forward of where you see 1920 on your gun) that does not appear to have any use"...that groove was to accommodate the rear sight of a LP08 ("Artillery") Luger. Obviously the drawings you saw were of a LP08 that was rebarreled and no longer had that rear sight or was of an Erfurt Arsenal made Luger produced after 1914, all of which were made with that groove simply because the arsenal didn't bother to change the tooling.

The Luger in the image you posted is a very nice example, but as you can see the transition of the lower part of the chamfer is a bit more apparent than on your rendering, as I attempted to point out.

Your illustration is quite nice. I did not mean to sound critical, I just wanted to help make it a wee bit more authentic. If you are happy with it, that is all that matters.
Best regards,
Ron

About the rear sight: These might help :)

These drawings were (re)done for the production of the commemorative Mauser Parabellum / Navy version.

David,

The horizontal groove in the top front of the barrel extension is a relief cut to accommodate the rear sight leaf's lowest position on Artillery Lugers. You'll have seen it on pistols produced by Erfurt, which made the cut on all their pistols after a certain point finally assembled as non-Artilleries. You'll also find it on DWM pistols that were re-barreled with anything other than an Artillery barrel with the rear tangent sight, usually P-08s created to bring the pistols into compliance with Versailles Treaty regulations for barrel length.

Yet Another David

Hi Guys,

To bring you up to date, I have almost completely re-made all of the models that were used in my Luger assembly.

I had been forced into downloading someone else's models from the internet to complete my assembly, I got these off one of the web sites that I have used before.

Unfortunately 99% of the stuff I used was incorrect. I only found this out when I bought a full set of "cleaned up" drawings from John Sobato (of this forum). To cut a long story short, it has taken me until now from my last post on this forum to remodel virtually everything.

I am going to make 3 different variants of this gun and render them in one image. I will let you see the finished article when it is done.

Now that I have at last got a "sound" standard model with a 4" barrel, I intend making a 6" version (not the Naval one as I cannot find any details of the adjustable rear sight anywhere) and an artillery version made from the barrel drawings that Rich B. very kindly sent me.

I have the barrel already modelled, but I am short of some parts e.g. drawings of the dovetailed sight base, the adjusting toggle, details of the elevation spring and assembly, etc.

Does anyone have these details on drawings in their collection. I would be most grateful for a copy, if you wouldn't mind.

Thank you to all for your help and support.

Regards,

Dave (9x19)

Footnote: John Sobato - Your cleaned up drawings have been my saviour. I cannot thank you enough! Anyone in need of readable drawings should contact John without hesitation. Best $25 I have spent!

Vlim - thank you for the drawings, I will add them to my collection for construction in my modeller, right after I finish the artillery Luger and butt stock. Ah, that is another subject I need help with, does anyone have drawings detailing the metalwork of the butt stock to gun frame connector mechanism?

Dave, the grooves in the checkered patterns on the grips are buggin' me...sorry, another detail. But we all want to see your finished model perfect! You have some of John's plans, but I found an old thread with lots of pertinent info for ya: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...eckering+angle

Hi,

Yes, I agree that the chequering is not correct (it also bugs the heck out of me too). However, It is only a bitmap with "bump" factor overlaid on the surface and is only a temporary representation. It will be replaced with something more realistic in due course.

All material finishes can be fine tuned when I have the three gun variants in one image. For now I am just concentrating on the mechanics.

Regards all,

Dave

Hi Guys,

I have narrowed down the drawings I need - pages 33, 35, 38, 39, 40 & 41 of the manufacturing manual.

Here is a video I found that shows these pages, but does not given any details as to where they can be found: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeOTQZVYxIA

Can anyone point me in the right direction please?

Regards all,

Dave

Finally, the reason that I made my first post on this forum - I have finished the Naval version of the P08.

I have just the Artillery Luger rear sight and stock to complete and I will be a very happy chappy :jumper:

I can then address the chequering on the grip :)

Regards all,

Dave

Hi Dave,
A couple (well actually three) small points:
1/ Imperial Navy Lugers were numbered in the Commercial style, the side-plate was numbered on it's lower edge, not it's face.
2/ The P08 mark on the left side of the frame is only found on P08 Lugers (you know, the kind with 4 inch barrels) dated 1941 or 1942.
3/ Since you have pictured a short frame gun it could only be the 1914 variation, so the chamber should be dated 1916 or 1917, not blank.
Otherwise it's a beautiful job, you could well be proud.
Regards, Norm

P.S. I've just noticed a fourth point, you have depicted a receiver with a notched front edge. This notch was intended to provide clearance for the Artillery rear sight, although it's also found on Erfurt P08's dated 1914-1918. It's a definite no-no on a Navy.
Sorry to be so critical but we Navy collectors can be somewhat anal!