BROKEN Hold Open Latch
 

Guys,

My 1918 DWM Hold Open broke today. After only 5 shots the toggle opened as usual, put some rounds on the magazine but it never went to the front again.

Dismounting the pistol found the Hold Open Latch broken in two parts...

I used Geco 124 gr ammo, could they be the problem? Are they too strong?

Where do you advise me to get a "new" one, in Europe?

Thanks

Wow...You have a camera that takes .PDF pics??? :eek:

That's the first pic of a broken hold-open that I've seen here...Crystalline fracture...Odd...

I would think that LugerDoc here on the forum could fix you up with a replacement... :)

Sorry, I thought that jpeg photos need to be too small be accepted here.

Rich,
why is a crystalline fracture odd?
Just what I would expect from a hardened part.

But for sure he needs a new one.

You're right. I forgot that it would be hardened...CRS strikes again... :rolleyes:

Hello,

For a replacement part you can try cds ehrenreich in Germany.
They have it listed for €40,00.

Already tried them but no answer yet...

Thanks

In the mean time: The pistol works fine without it :)

Hi Miguel and welcome to the forum. I hope that we can be of some help with resolving the problem.

Your photography is outstanding. In fact, it's some of the finest I've seen.

I expect that you came up against our file size limitation when uploading them, which is why you chose PDF format, which allows larger files. This is not necessary, and uses quite a bit of space (about 3 3/4 MB).

I've attached your photos to this post. To upload them, I resized them to 1024 pixels horizontal and applied 50% Jpeg compression. The total size is about 400Kb.

On Ammo suggestions, we always recommend standard velocity 115gn ball (full metal jacket) ammunition. Your GECO ammo might have been "NATO" power, which is loaded for machine guns and is too high a velocity.

It's possible that your recoil spring needs replacement. Check to see how hard the receiver is hitting the back of the frame by putting some masking tape there and looking for compression marks. There are several levels of coil count and thickness of the spring which yield different levels of resistance. Look at our FAQ document for details.

As Gerben mentioned, you can shoot the gun without the hold open. Just be sure to remove the broken part and it's spring before loading and firing the gun. Of course, it will close after the last cartridge is fired.

The replacement hold-open part and spring will probably require some hand fitting.

Can anyone with a metallurgy background comment on this part failure? It looks from the photos like the heat treating may have been uneven (note the fire blue color which fades before the right angle that failed).

Marc

This horse is about beaten to death- just buy another hold open.

You tagged a question to an old thread elsewhere- asking if it could be repaired.
The short answer is yes- any good welder could "repair" it. Then it would require re-shaping and re-fitting to the pistol. The big question would be how durable is the repair in service; it could easily break again- in the same or another spot.

Which brings us back to - buy a new hold open.

Does LugerDoc ship parts like this to Europe?
- - - -
Over on Jan Still's forum, someone else is replacing a hold open on a Mauser gun, and is showing a part with the same "24" number on it...

Seems like issues bunch up... This is one of several "hold open" issue threads in the past week or so... I do see Miguel's post toward the end of that thread...

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...pen-latch-WWII

Yes I saw it and tried to buy that Hold Open Latch that has the same number as mine, but no answer till now :(

Bummer!

Have you tried these?

https://www.google.pt/url?sa=t&sourc...TwYR4kbadM7H7Q

PS. My BYF 41 is # 8024 So guess the number on the holdopen.:rolleyes:

Mario,

CDS does indeed have lots of parts we would be interested in. You're lucky to live in the EU because they don't export to the U.S.!

I have been acquiring mostly Erma and some Luger parts from them for a few years, but I had to establish a proxy who lives in Oberndorf. I send him a list and he buys them, obtains an export permit, and sends them to me.

Considering three shipping charges, international check-cashing fee, a proportion of the permit, and something sent to my friend to make it worth his while, my customers wind up paying just about double full retail for any part. In most cases it seems worth the expense and trouble, because otherwise their guns would be paperweights.

CDS was my last chance to obtain certain parts, as stock of U.S. sellers is depleted, but even they are running out of some components, which are now not available NOS anywhere on earth. As G.T. would say, they're made of "unobtainium"!

Miguel,

You will not be happy with their answer, as above. They are also weird to deal with, kind of snotty, condescending, and dismissive. Not particularly friendly.

Yes, I saw it tonight and already bought an hold Open latch, unfortunately I don't believe it could be a number 24... maybe you could sell yours :D

Thanks, as I said above, I already order an hold open latch from another webshop, I hope they have and send it.

Thanks :thumbup:

Thanks Marc, I used a Macro lens and a 21 Mpix camera, as a photo enthusiast it's my duty to make detailed photos :)

I used the Geco 124 gr because they are the available on the market, now I see that they are used for IPSC and maybe they are too strong for my old P08. Now I am seraching for the Winchester 115ge, 363 m/s velocity.

Anyway, I don't understand how a strong ammo can break the hold open, because if the ammo is strong and the recoil spring is old and weak, the velocity of the breech going to the front, to hit the hold open couldn't be bigger than with a weak ammo and /or a strong recoil spring, don't you think?

If my logic is correct, the break has no relation with the ammo nor the weak spring but maybe weak or defective HO

I like them already! :thumbup:

In some 20 odd years I've seen some 4 holdopen fail. So they do break. I've used Geco ammo and I don't think they are too stong. At least not compared to our old INDEP ammo.

I genereally remove the holdopen when shooting matches, just to be on the safe side.

About selling my #24. :evilgrin:

Wow! 4 in 20 years; that is one every five years and in a real shooting environment.

I probably lose one every five years; seems I lose or "misplace" a part every day-though sometimes I find it later in the strangest places. ;)

Seriously, every thing breaks sooner or later; however, I don't see the "power" of the round having any real effect on the hold open.

Also, many loadings of Geco Ammunition are for submachineguns, and would not be appropriate or safe in the Luger.

I only see GECO ammo occasionally,
do you have a list of loadings?

This is a photo of the Geco 124gr I used and these must be their specifications:

Caliber: 9mm
Weight: 124 Grain
Bullet Style: Full Metal Jacket
Casing: Brass
Muzzle Velocity: 1181 fps
Muzzle Energy: 281 ft. lbs

Here's a global 9mm ammunition chart for most brands out there.

http://www.ballistics101.com/9mm.php

Mind that none of them were mine. It happened to different people throughout those years.

And yes, nothing lasts forever if it's being used. Don't believe the holdopen breakage is ammo related. It simply gets slammed every time the magazine is empty. That's 14 times in one single match.

Deltafox,
I have seen that one and have a box or two.
Alanint,
Thanks for the list- great to have.
Is Geco there under another name? Found it- under RUAG.
None shown are particulary "hot".
kurusu,
That is more shooting than most lugers will see in their lifetime in a collectors hands; and is what I meant by "real shooting environment". ;)

The Geco ammo specs are pretty much the same as the PMC that I use, and I don't consider it over powdered for a Luger.

Yes, it's the same I used.

That velocity seems a tad on the high side for a 124 grain bullet.

When I shot them they didn't feel that hot.

Didn't use much of them cause I had to aim real low on the target to get on the x ring and it didn't work well for me.

Maybe it was a good thing.:rolleyes:

Anyway I prefer 115 grain ammo if I can get it. Had good results a few years back with Winchester. But the last lot I bought proved disapointing.

But since my oftalmologist said I'm developing cataracts maybe the problem is with me.:mad:

RUAG is a large Swiss company that produces, among other things, ammo under the names GECO; RWS; Rotweil and Norma.

If that 9mm chart is correct and Geco is the same and made by RUAG then the info above isn't correct, the Muzzle Energy is not 281 ft.lb but much more: 382 ft.lb

Well, that is one thing "they" can fix now. I've had both eyes done in the last 18months, and for the first time in years I can see both the sights and target clearly!

Though that does mean no more excuses for me.:evilgrin:

I ordered some Winchester 115 gr to replace my Geco 124 gr but for what I saw in that chart, only the weight of the bullet change, the energy and the velocity are almost the same.

Do you think that with these Winchester 115gr my P08 is more protected to break again or must I use another brand?

thanks

The lighter bullet will develop less pressure for the same velocity.

The INDEP ammo was around 1350 fps for a 115 grain bullet. And I shot plenty of it in my Luger.:rolleyes:

Charts values are all very well but...

One important thing. 1930s Mauser made Lugers have stronger recoil springs than the ones from WWI, the ammo was increased in power in the meanwhile.

For your last question. We are using 75 year old plus guns. No one can tell for sure what they went through all those years. So, no guaranties whatsoever.:rolleyes:

I know, but I'm at an early stage. Any action now would be premature. The Doc said "Come back the end of next year (this year) to see how it's evolving. :eek:


PS. My 84 year old mother is almost as blind as a bat but refuses to have cirurgy (she is afraid because she is also diabetic).

I can understand both of those situations for sure.:thumbup:

The same thing happened to me. Sheared the top of the hold open. Tom had one and the same number.

Mike