Current German Carbine Reproductions
 

Hi to All:

In this month's Deutsches Waffen Journal (8/August 2003, Page 126) the Firm "Wagner & Sohn" is selling an M1900/2000 Jagdkarabiner for 1,985 Euros (approximately $2,000.00).

From the photo, and ad, it is a remake of the original, including the 300mm barrel and fore and rear stocks. The sights look just like the originals, too.

If a good quality job, this is an unbelievable deal, as Martz repos are now selling here for almost $8,000.00!!

Does anywone know anything about these (our German members, perhaps)?

Sieger

Hi Again:

I'm contacting the firm to get more information.

Sieger

Sieger, For that kind of money sign me up! If you find out anything about this please let the membership know. Jerry Burney

I would be interested in participating in, or coordinating, a group buy. Also of interest to me is the Swiss surplus M1906/29.

Hello,
Is it possible to see a photo?

Ciao

Mauro

Hello friends
here are two URL�´s of German gun makers who offer Luger carbines in very good quality at reasonable prices.
In case their is any interesst, I can contact the dealers on your behalf in case you face trouble because of the language.
http://www.touri.de/werle/Luger/luger.html
http://www.wagner-eltze.de/startseite_1.htm

I�´ll try to post some pictures

regards from Germany
Peter

Hello friends,
below I try to post two pics

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/...inerWagner.jpg

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/...binerWerle.jpg

regards
Peter

Because these are new manufacture, they are not considered C&R and the stock law might be looked into. These might have to be transferred under a different license.

One of these is in my possession. I heard, the newly made parts originate from Romania, assembled in Germany. Mostly made from WW II pistols, all the markings (year, acceptance) remains. New hot dip blueng and new grips. Nice wood, nice finish. No grip safety, 9 mm Luger cartridge. For my carbine is +P+ loading to weak to recoil. Maybe the other are better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Jan Balcar:
<strong>One of these is in my possession. I heard, the newly made parts originate from Romania, assembled in Germany. Mostly made from WW II pistols, all the markings (year, acceptance) remains. New hot dip blueng and new grips. Nice wood, nice finish. No grip safety, 9 mm Luger cartridge. For my carbine is +P+ loading to weak to recoil. Maybe the other are better.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dear Jan:

Is yours a Wagner & Sohn Pistol? If not, from whom did you obtain it? How is the quality of the workmanship? The photos on the Wagner and Sohn site look very impressive, especially the wood work and quality.

Does your pistol have the extra spring in the fore stock to assist the regular recoil spring in its action?

Sieger

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Thor:
<strong>Because these are new manufacture, they are not considered C&R and the stock law might be looked into. These might have to be transferred under a different license.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Thor:

Yes, the short barrel and stock may well be a consideration for importing these. Do you know of an FFL that has an import license?

Also, if we can get the parts, we may well wish to assemble our own here.

Sieger

Simpson LTD has an import FFL. Simpson LTD Import Services

I don't think that the butt stock will be a problem as long as the barrel length is 16". Another way to go about it is to write a letter to BATFE and ask them to add this gun to the C

Michael Zeleney alluded to a possible group purchase, presumably with a one-time, one-group shipment . . . . and, hopefully, at a quantity discount.

I would be interested in participating if anyone starts such a program.

Luke

Unless the barrel of these guns is at least 16 inches from muzzle to boltface then these guns will be considered Short Barreled Rifles (SBR) under the National Firearms Act of 1934 and will require registration and paying the federal tax on such weapons if ATF will even allow their importation...

Close examination of the picture, applying simple ratio methods, and using known Luger dimensions, it appears that the barrel length is roughly 11 inches. Not enough, unfortunately.

Admittedly, this is a very rough estimate, but I doubt that I am off by 5 inches. Someone check my estimate, please.

Luke

Friends:

Well, if BATFE won't allow us to import them assembled, then maybe someone, like Thor, can simply import the parts and make them here, just like the Germans are doing.

Yes, these may be subject to special registration, but then again, so are the new Martz Carbines. At this price, I feel that most of us could afford the extra $500.00 "transfer fee" imposed under the Act.

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THE LAW WILL BE MAINTAINED BY ME, FOR ONE!!!

Has anyone on the Forum dealt with a Carbine transfer under the BATFE Regs before?

If so, could you lend us all a hand here.

Sieger

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Luke:
<strong>Close examination of the picture, applying simple ratio methods, and using known Luger dimensions, it appears that the barrel length is roughly 11 inches. Not enough, unfortunately.

Admittedly, this is a very rough estimate, but I doubt that I am off by 5 inches. Someone check my estimate, please.

Luke</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hi Luke:

This is a recreation of the 1902 DWM Carbine with a 300mm barrel (aprox. a 11 1/2 inches).

Sieger

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Thor:
<strong>Simpson LTD has an import FFL. Simpson LTD Import Services</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hi Thor:

Yes he does, but his price will reflect it, no doubt. I just remembered an importer that I have been doing business with for years, If we can import these assembled, I'll check to see if he has an interest.

Thanks!!!

Sieger

My carbine is made by B�¶ddecker & Wagner (Wagner & Sohn predecessor) some three years ago. I bought it in Germany from an another dealer. The carbine is very well crafted. Wooden parts are well fitting and made from first class wood. BUT: It is NOT the 1902 carbine reproduction!

It is P.08 (no grip safety, short frame!) with long barrel (302 mm from muzzle to end of chamber) and removable stock. Carbine lacks extra spring, the regular recoil spring (on my piece!) is too strong, to recoil.

Three years ago I heard something about version with fixed (non removable) stock.

Hi All:

Jan just sent me some excellent photos of his Carbine. It looks magnificent!!!

If you would like to see these, please e-mail me at: wotan.ny@ix.netcom.com

You will be happy that you did. Meanwhile, I have contacted the German firm relative to importation, etc, and hope to be able to report something soon.

Sieger

The carbine replica sounds like more trouble than it would be worth to import privately. The frame on which it is built must have been "removed from the purview of the NFA", as detailed at http://www.lugerforum.com/BATF2.html . While the final item on this list suggests the possibility of securing BATF approval for a short-barreled rifle built from scratch, I doubt that this process can be effectively coordinated by the members of this forum. Nevertheless, I would be all too happy to be proven wrong.

Importing the Swiss surplus M1906/29 would be much easier. I will finance and coordinate a wholesale shipment, given enough retail interest from the assembled audience, and agreement on the terms and conditions of the transaction.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Michael Zeleny:
<strong>
"The carbine replica sounds like more trouble than it would be worth to import privately.

"I doubt that this process can be effectively coordinated by the members of this forum. Nevertheless, I would be all to happy to be proven wrong." </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Gee Mike:

Your hope springs eternal.

No one said that it would be easy to import or assemble and license these here, but if anyone can do it, rest assured someone in our membership can.


Sieger

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Michael Zeleny:
<strong>
"Importing the Swiss surplus M1906/29 would be much easier. I will finance and coordinate a wholesale shipment, given enough retail interest from the assembled audience, and agreement on the terms and conditions of the transaction."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Mike:

If you were to start a thread on this, you might even get some interest.

Sieger

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Sieger:
<strong>
No one said that it would be easy to import or assemble and license these here, but if anyone can do it, rest assured someone in our membership can.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Okay, I'll bite. The requirements and desiderata for importing newly assembled guns are different from those for assembliing imported parts stateside. Arranging for a small shipment of antique handguns from Germany or Switzerland is a cinch, provided that they do not originate elsewhere, unlike Luger carbines of Romanian manufacture. All you need to break even is set your retail price at or above four times your wholesale cost FOB the port of entry. Setting yourself up as a manufacturer is a very different proposition, bringing to mind the reasons for these carbines to be assembled in Romania, by skilled workers earning $10 a day, rather than in Germany, by skilled workers earning $500 a day. You can cut your labor costs in half by setting up shop in certain parts of Texas or New Mexico. You can cut them fourfold by not looking too closely at your employees' immigration status. But you are not going to cut them to the level of Eastern Europe, whose output impresses you with its value for the money. And bear in mind that Sam Cummings never broke even with his Mauser Parabellum replicas.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...o/polo1286.htm
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m11...55/print.jhtml

The "fixed stock" carbine retros should also be available from Transarms in Germany. They advertise fixed stock broomhandles as well
www.transarms.de
No photos on the website, unfortunately.
You might want to ask for pics by e-mail; the owner speaks some English. He's around at www.infantryrifles.com occasionally.

Why Pay a Mark-Up?

For those Forum members interested in importing Swiss Parabellums, please contact me at:

wotan.ny@ix.netcom.com

as I know of a direct source in Europe that can handle it.

Sieger

Hi to All:

Herr Wagner has just sent me some photos of the Carbine parts and how they are mounted to the Luger's frame. I must say that it is an improvement over the original in its simplicity.

Please e-mail me at: Wotan.ny@ix.netcom.com for copies.

He wasn't familiar with the requirements for importing into the US so I'll keep checking.

Sieger