GL Stamp how Rare is it???
 

I was led to beleive that a luger with a GL stamp on it was VERY rare... yet I keep seeing it for sale out there...

Now I see it again on another bizarre variant on this phoenix website

http://phoenixinvestmentarms.com/00argl1.htm

is this the real deal??

Thanks,

John

Could be. According to the write-up, documentation exists for the piece. And yes, a GL stamp is very rare.

It is an interesting Luger, but one wonders that it is not being presented as a restoration when it obviously is. I find it amazing that this Luger or other handgun of that vintage with that much wear on the grips would have 99%+ blue and straw. Also consider the careful wording of the ad..."It was customary to deliver a presentation Luger with the box and all the accessories. It is very difficult to find one that is pristine in the box new"...which would lead you to believe that the reproduction case and accessories that have been assembled were originally with the gun. The "period" cleaning rod seems more appropriate for a 1906 vintage Luger than a 1900.

Now this may be a 100% legitimate Luger, but the presentation leaves much to be desired for "truth in advertising". Is it the real deal...don't know...what do you think?

Ron raises several sigificant and interesting questions regarding this piece. If it is a restoration, it was very well done. I agree that the grips have a little wear, but the blue and straw are 100%. I recently inspected another presentation 1900 piece, the deAlvear luger. It too, was 100% and the grips looked also 100%. There was no "GL" proof and the serial number was below 10,000. It did not sell on a recent Andrew Martin auction as the reserve price was not met. What is a "serious" collector to do? Whom do we trust? This Pheonix Arms 1900 is probably priced over $20000. It would probably be worth it IF original. But then how can one tell? We need documentation. I guess that's why Ralph's consignment .45 carbine hasn't sold. Just my humble opinion.

How interesting! A few years ago, I saw the same pistol (serial #10000) being offered by an honest European dealer, and the dealer's description made no mention of it having a connection to an Argentine president. I know for a fact that the pistol was NOT equiped with a presentation case and, furthermore, it did not have a 'GL' hallmark; it was probably added by a US dealer to enhance the rarity of the pistol. The existence of a 'GL' hallmark on a genuine Luger can add between $10k-$20k on the price as compared to a Luger which does not have a 'GL' hallmark.

Unfortunately, the collectors market is becoming more corrupt as the years pass by, and one way to protect yourself is to seek the advice and opinion of honest experts who have researched and recorded these pistols since the time they came on the market. The best advise I can give to any Luger collector is to examine as many pistols as possible, and do not believe all the 'BS' which is advertised or spoken. Many collectors love to hear about new discoveries to keep the excitement flowing, but such finds seldom occur. When a genuine pistol surfaces on the market, it should be able to speak for itself, and show the necessary 'comfort zones' after 65+ years of existence even if it was contained in a case or holster.

I hope that my advice is helpful to any collectors.

Good luck,
Albert

Ron,
The absence of the "million dollar chip" on the left grip, the quality of material, the workmanship, and questionable condition of the magazine bases, gives reason for doubt. IMO.
ViggoG

This 'un smells worse than a dead skunk on a hot August afternoon. Albert's observation concerning how this piece has mystically and magically acquired a provenance and a GL marking since he last examined it should send anyone except a blind man running in fear. Remember, fanaticism is doubling your efforts when you have lost sight of your goals. Spending big bucks on this piece is simply looney.

Tom A.

Would love to see the "documentation" from the "Comando de Arsenales"!!!

Herb,

I'll bet it is as good as that stuff that was planted in the Muenchen library to fake a Hitler piece a few years back.Document forgery has gotten soooo easy now that a single piece of paper provenance is essentially no provenance.

Tom A.

Gee Guys, before we bury this skunk I emailed the seller and he has posted some more pictures of the serial numbers. Now I'm not a metallurgist but it sure doesn't look like anyone altered the serial numbers. If we are to accept this level of expertise in alterations then any Luger must be bogus because any number on anybody's gun can be altered. I'm not sure we want to go there.
I asked about Albert's examination of this Luger in Europe. He sent me a link to a Munich Auction House that had the gun and the ad (in German) did mention it being a GL and belonging to a Julio Rocca and having a 10000 serial number. Maybe Al looked at a different gun or there are more 10000 numbered guns.

I further learned that the gun was at the Max Show in Pittsburgh and shown in Charlotte at which time several people examined the gun. He said he would link up the letter from the Argentine Government so it could be downloaded first chance he gets. Right now the gun is being examined by someone who he said is very serious collector.

Then I looked at the other GL on his site and that one is serial number 26. http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/0026GL.htm

How many GL's are there out there? I got Ralph Shattuck's screen saver and there are five on that disc; is that a different level of collecting?"

John

Hi John,

I do not think anyone implied that the "10000" was monkeyed around with. Rather, the speculation was that a "GL" might have been added at some point in time.

The "GL" could be added with a custom-made stamp, or maybe a very old rear link from a worn-out GL luger was just transferred to this gun. Taking a commercial 10000 numbered gun into the high dollar world of a "GL" made gun...

But I, vote, that this gun was certainly refinished...from the photos provided...

Regards,

Pete... http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa..._computer1.gif

OK, here we go again. Serial number 26 was part of the Swiss trials of 1899, was subsequently altered with a production style trigger, rear toggle link and sight and submitted for the British trials in October of 1900. It has a hand stamped/engraved Swiss cross over the chamber, standard 120mm (4.75") barrel, bordered grips, is not GL marked, and the last time I heard it was residing in the MoD Pattern Room. Check it out at Albert's website British Serial Number 26. This is a very well known and documented serial number with impeccable provenance. Now what?

This #26 has no borders on the grips, no Swiss Cross, no strawed sear bar and has the "GL" logo. How many #26's are there (sic!)? Pardon my ignorance, Ron, but what and where is the MoD Pattern Room?

In Nottingham in Jolly Old England. (Actually, I think it may have been relocated to another location in England, but I have forgotten where). MoD is Ministry of Defense.

As to "how many #26's are there"...one that I know of that has unquestionable authenticity.

Thanks, Ron. What is one to think now? I hope more of our learned and experienced Forum members join this discussion thread. There's a great deal at stake here.

Albert Beliard has this British early 1900 on his web site...

http://imperialarms.home.att.net/

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1900british.jpg

Does anyone know its serial number ?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Pete, I thought Ron said it was #26!

Sorry...I missed Ron's reference to Albert's web site...

Regards,

Pete... http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/sorry.gif

Pete,
Do a "mouse over" on the picture (on Albert's website just run the cursor over the picture without clicking and it will give you the caption of the picture) It is serial number 26, and I believe it was photographed by Albert at the Pattern Room.

Bing, Bing, - Round 3!!

Hey Ron, I thought you would do all the explaining, but I shall add a few comments and let you carry on!

Firstly, I would like to point out a few details regarding the 1900 British Test Luger serial #26:

1) It has a radius toggle link;
2) It has TWO recoil retainer springs, one clockwise and the other anti-clockwise;
3) It is numbered in the early style with no 'GL';
4) It has an hand engraved Swiss cross on the chamber;
5) It has a standard 1900 trigger, not the thin type of the 1899 model;

Based on various articles which have been written, it is assumed that the serial range of these early pistols went up to 40, and maybe slightly higher (includes the Swiss, Dutch and British Trail pistols). This makes me wonder from where the other serial #26 surfaced unless it was hallmarked 'GL' using a 1900 Commercial pistol.

In order for a Luger to be hallmarked 'GL', it would require that the pistol be an experimental/test pistol; a pistol with a special feature; or a presentation - I do not notice anything special on the other serial #26 which justifies a 'GL'. Lastly, the same Luger has a relieved grip (look at the magazine) which would be very suspicious on a pistol with such a low serial number - I rest my case.

Beware,
Albert

Thank you, I stand slightly corrected Albert. I only mentioned the rear toggle link, but obviously the forward toggle link having the required matching radius was replaced as well. It has two FIRING PIN springs, one clockwise and the other anti-clockwise. Didn't mention that since it can't be seen in the photographs. I think I touched on the rest of the details.

I also didn't mention that these very early pre-production Lugers have the barrel serial number running lengthwise parallel to the bore. The GL marked #26 has the barrel serial number placement in the conventional manner. It is the unconventional length of this barrel that is the special feature that might possibly justify a GL marking. But Georg giving a 1900 a two digit serial number that had already been used is a bit unsettling. It just doesn't fit.

The relieved frame isn't a solid indicator since most of the early unrelieved frames were later modified to accept the high button mag. That's why it is so hard to find an unrelieved frame Luger these days.

Isn't it neat how these threads can turn into "Early Lugers 101". Education is what it is all about. Hopefully it helps awareness.

Another beauty, a 1900 commercial, not GL marked though, but complete, from Land of Borchardt. http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...commercial.jpg <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Just for fun:

Notice that both GL logo's are different in style, size and placement.

Does this mean Georg signed them both himself by hand? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

In the ad there is no claim made to the finish being original!! a very cleverly worded description of the gun!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by lugercollector:
<strong>In the ad there is no claim made to the finish being original!! a very cleverly worded description of the gun!!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I noticed that as well. Much too clever by half.

To 'GL' or not to 'GL' - that is the question!

This subject may create some debate probably resulting from the lack of reliable information available. We have discussed a few interesting Lugers such as the two M1900 Argentine presidential Lugers (deAlvear and Roca); the real British Test Luger #26; and a cased 1900 Commercial shown displayed on â??The Land of the Borchardtâ?? web site. The use of a 'GL' hallmark creates a few interesting questions such as which Lugers could normally have a â??GLâ?? and which ones are fakes or likely incorrect.

To the best of my knowledge, there is only one M1902/06 â??GLâ?? carbine (cased) known to exist which was offered to a president (in Latin America) who was President Diaz of Mexico; I do not know any M1900/02 pistol which was offered to another world president which was originally hallmarked â??GLâ??. There may exist a few (cased) M1900/02 Lugers which were chamber marked with a presidentâ??s initials, but those Luger would not necessarily have to be hallmarked â??GLâ?? simply because it was offered to a president of a country. In order for an early Luger to be hallmarked â??GLâ??, it would have to be given to a person who was very significant and/or important to DWMâ??s financial interest. If Theodore Rooseveltâ??s 1900 cased Tangent Sight Carbine was not â??GLâ?? hallmarked, why should an Argentine president receive a â??GLâ?? Luger?

In regards to Luger pistols with personal chamber initials, I have never encountered a M1900 in a retailer/factory case which is also hallmarked â??GLâ??. Furthermore, none of the Lugers offered in retailer/factory cases shown in LMP book are â??GLâ?? hallmarked. A few years ago, I had the opportunity to examine in Germany a near mint cased M1900 Luger which was offered and chamber marked to Prince Franz Josef (before he became Emperor of Austria), and believe it or not, that pistol was NOT â??GLâ?? hallmarked.

So, which Lugers could have received a â??GLâ?? hallmark? In my opinion, those Lugers most likely to have a â??GLâ?? would be:

1. Those used in a special trail such as the Swiss, Dutch, British and specific US trials, or those offered to a member of a testing commission;

2. Lugers with very special features or calibers;

3. Presentation Lugers given to royal figures or very important figures in big corporations. There may be one or two special exceptions, but they would probably be unique cases.

Considering the corruption and greed by unscrupulous dealers, and the simplicity to stamp this hallmark on the rear of a toggle, it could easily tempt those people to add a â??GLâ?? hallmark on any Luger which might meet certain requirements for accepting this hallmark to make an extra $10k-$15k profit.

Any Luger with a â??GLâ?? hallmark should be studied very carefully and have a strong provenance to confirm that it is genuine. My opinion/hypothesis is based on many years of experience as well as the examination of a number of â??GLâ?? Lugers.

Albert

Al, I looked at your personal collection on your site as Ron suggested and wow, you have two GL's.
How about posting some more pictures of GL proof and how the serial numbers are stamped on the bolt and toggles so we can compare them with the other guns being offered. Can you show a picture of the trigger widths?

Is there anything written about how and for what reason the "GL" was applied? Didn't they have to apply that before the gun was hardened? I want to learn about this and there must be some source that you gained your knowledge from. Who did you get to authenticate your GL's?

Thanks,

John

Hello John,

Unfortunately, I do not have access to my photo albums at the moment while I am living overseas which contain macro photos of each 'GL' stamp, namely for my 1900 'Swiss Acceptance' Luger serial #13, and my 1900 'GL' 3-Position Tangent Sight Luger serial #20. Until I can obtain these photos from storage, I shall try my best to describe each 'GL' hallmark and its position relative to a serial number placements.

The 'GL' hallmark on the 1900 'Swiss Acceptance' Luger is stamped on the tail-end of the toggle, however, the serial number of the pistol is stamped below on the rear of the frame as well as on the rear toggle block (see image below) - in other words, the 'GL' and serial number are separated and this arrangement/placement is unique to these series of pistols between 1899 and very early 1900. You might be able to see the 'GL' in the image at an angle and the lightness of the stamp/hallmark.

http://imperialarms.home.att.net/Ima.../1900Swiss.jpg

I would like to point out that this pistol has been Swiss Arsenal refurbished after the end of the Swiss Trials, and a few small parts have been replaced which was normal for a pistol that received some criticisms from the Swiss Pistol Commission. One major criticism was the thin trigger on the original pistols and, consequently, my pistol probably had the original thin trigger replaced with an unnumbered wide trigger when they became available between 1902/03 (?). Furthermore, the extractor was replaced with a reinforced 'hump' extractor; the ejector was replaced and stamped internally with a '+' on the 'hook'; and the front sight was replaced and also stamped with a '+'. My pistol was NOT one of the 20 pistols which participated in the 1899 Swiss Trials, but instead, one of the 20 pistols which was presented as gifts to the Swiss Pistol Commission after the trials. Not a bad idea for a good marketing strategy! For this reason, it is accepted that these pistols had been stamped with a 'GL' hallmark. In regards to the serial number placement, I would like to highlight three important numbers, namely the one on the right side of the magazine release and takedown lever, and the one on the underside of the barrel, parallel to the bore axis. Interestingly, the barrel on my pistol was not replaced, unlike the one on the M1899 serial #19.

In regards to my 1900 Tangent Sight Luger, the 'GL' hallmark is stamped slightly more bold and deeper than compared to other 'GL' Lugers which I have examined. To give a general idea of depth, the 'GL' is about the same depth as the numbers on the ramp sight. It is my opinion that the 'GL' and serial numbers were stamped on the pistol before specific areas were hardened. In the case of the Tangent Sight Lugers with a 'GL' hallmark (bear in mind that some of these pistols and carbines do not have a 'GL' hallmark), both these stamps were close together, the 'GL' on top and the serial number on the bottom. There is no set rule or pattern which determines whether a 'GL' hallmark is correct or incorrect, and in most cases, a collector has to go with his 'gut feeling' and logic. For example, when examining a 'GL' Luger, do not only examine the 'GL' hallmark - examine the entire pistol and look for those 'comfort zones' which prove authenticity.

Buying rare and expensive Lugers might leave a collector exposed to the aggressive nature, jealousy and criticisms from other collectors and dealers, and for this reason, I have always had my Lugers authenticated and certified by my personal friend Mr. Charles Kenyon with whom I have had so far a 20 year relationship. Should I ever sell a Luger from my personal collection, it also comes with the certificate of authenticity.

As I continue to conduct more research on Ludw. Loewe & Co., the two brothers and their financial 'empire', the DWM factory and Georg Luger's role and duties in the company, I may wish to provide another hypothesis for the meaning of the 'GL' hallmark. But, that might be another chapter!

Cheers,
Albert