Another .45 Caliber Luger Mystery
 

One of our newest members Captain Monty Mendenhall, has requested assistance in the identification of this .45 caliber Luger that he owns.

I have created a single photo album in the Member Gallery with the hi-res photo of this image. More photos will be made available soon.

http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb..._pix.sized.jpg

The gun's serial number is #3 and is DWM marked with an American Eagle over the chamber. The frame is identical in size to a standard P-08, and as the photo shows, the magazine is non-standard. John Martz has been contacted and has told the owner he has no knowledge of this gun.

Anyone who has seen this gun before please provide any serious information you may have about this gun in this message thread.

The saga continues :confused:

Here is the right side of the gun. The Hi-Res version has been placed in the Member Gallery Album...

http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...side.sized.jpg

John, Are you sure the frame is identical to a standard P-08? I didn't think a .45 could be built on a standard frame. Jerry Burney

I didn't think so either Jerry...

I didn't think there was enough space to hollow out the frame for a .45 mag and that was why Wyatt had created his top-loaders...

the Cap'n and I are exchanging emails as we speak... but the additional Hi-res photos will have to wait since they are all at least 1MB in size and he said he will snail mail me a CD tomorrow. His estimate for sending them via email was a whopping 12 hours on his slow dial-up connection.

He has confirmed that the frame is pretty standard for 9mm dimensions... but the photos will tell the whole story. I also asked what the other side of the mag looks like, if it has a loading button and if the gun is equipped with a holdopen and if it is functional...(sorry about the run-on sentence) :( I asked him if he owned a "standard 9mm frame for comparison, and if the .45 frame shows signs of being broached for the larger mag...

Still Waiting for the answers.

It is VERY interesting that the upper receiver is of apparent Stoeger origin...

Notice in the HI=RES shot of the top of the front sight that the sight's witness mark does NOT have a corresponding mark on the front sight base... Probably a hand-made barrel.

It certainly is a NEAT looking LUGER!

I am not for sure, but usually, almost always, custom guns made by J.V.M. have his patented M.S.T.R. (Martz Safety Toggle Release)device installed... also, I don't recall John as being that fond of Swiss parts, as the sideplate is definitly Swiss, but it is possible,...And, all the wood components, grips and such, used by John, were of the highest XXXX Fancy French Walnut.... Finially, the mag. bottom doesn't appear to be one made by me??? I could be wrong, but it doesn't appear to be a John V. Martz creation!... it is very, very nice though! I like it! best to all, til...lat'r....GT <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />

* FWIW - Not my area of expertise; but, this one doesn't look like it has the unique "hooked" trigger of the other .45 Cal Lugers I've seen pictures of.
* Also, the stepped barrel has a decidedly swiss flavor. Coupled with the Swiss style side plate, I wonder if the country of origin is Swiss. :confused:

Respectfully,
Bob

Man...I am http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/quivering.gif with anticipation to learn more about this very unique luger...!!!

Bring on more photos, guys !!!

Regards,

Pete <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

I have heard that there have been other assorted guys, besides the master John Martz in taking two lugers and making a 45. However, this one is a weird one, looks like someone took a 45 barrel and mated it to a 9MM frame! Unsure how that would fit the magazine, but the barrel / throat area looks large compared to the rest of the frame.

Ed

I notice that the magazine base is held on by a single screw instead of pins. It would be great to see internal parts of the gun for further study. Maybe some will be on the CD...

Wow John, You are really getting good with the Photoshop!

Just kidding :)

From the picture of the mag, it looks like it can feed JHP's. Sure would like to see a shot looking into the chamber area.

Dean, me too. A shot with the grips off would answer a lot of questions also.

Ed

I have seen another ".45 Luger" in a private collection that is virtually identical to this one except without the American Eagle and Stoger markings. It is a non-functional display piece, and I suspect the same is true for this American Eagle. I do not want to be unkind, but it appears to be a fantasy item. If the bolt face has been opened up to accept the .45 cartridge, it might work as a single-shot, but I am relatively certain it will not feed from the magazine for subsequent shots.

I think Ron is right! It seems to me that after J.V.M. used two frames to make one .45, he had to machine them quite extensivly to make room for the mag! I think this is most likely the case, as a standard frame just isn't long enough thru the grip frame area! Good eyes Ron! best to you, til...lat'r....GT

I have to think that Brother Wood is dead on the money again. I suspect that we are being toyed with.

Hello Everyone. This is my first post here and I am amazed by the expertise that I have observed from you RKIs.

Most of the information that I konw to be correct about my .45acp Luger has already been posted.

I was reluctant to fire it but I did fire five rounds. There were two failures to eject (might have been the steel case Wolf ammo. I don't intend to fire it again. Below are some weight comparisons between the mystery Luger, a standard 9mm Luger and a Shansei Arsenal .45acp clone of an 1896 Mauser.

1896 7.63mm Mauser 39.8 oz / 1.128 kg
Shansei .45acp Mauser Clone 56.6 oz / 1.61 kg
Luger 9mm 30 oz / 0.856 kg
Luger .45acp 32 oz / 0.910 kg

Monty, The heavier 45acp barrel probably accounts for the 2oz weight difference. It's certainly not a copy of a true M1907/45 luger, without the grip safety and I have no knowledge of Stoeger ever offering lugers in 45 Cal. I'm really surprised that it would fire and auto load the next round. What type of ammo were you using? Th

wolf ammo

Hey Guys, just a word of encouragement and support for Monty. I have known Captain Monty and about him for a long time over on the Subguns.com boards... He has a good reputation there in a community of Class 3 users where a good reputation is hard property to come by, and unless proven otherwise, I will have to accept his information and photos in good faith... He is a gun owner and user, but not big on the technical details... he just wants them to shoot!

Other photographs are forthcoming and he will gladly photograph any area that you wish to see... the only delay is that he is snail mailing them to me on a CD because they are so large. I will mount them all in the Member Gallery album I created just for this purpose when they arrive. I am of the opinion that some gunsmith created this gun, without being knowledgeable enough to know if the safety margins of the design have been exceeded... time will tell.

I have requested photos of all sides, all markings and the gun frame without the grips installed.

Captain Monty, please also include a good shot of the bolt face, and the chamber area.

Other facts that I have received by email since yesterday...

The other side of the magazine DOES have a mag loading button. The holdopen is not functional when the toggle is pulled back on the empty mag.

The mag only holds 5 rounds, and they are held at a much steeper angle than the top round that is ready to be fed.

This gun may be a one-off attempt by someone to imitate a Wyatt or Martz, who carried things one step further with a functional mag. That certainly doesn't mean that the gun is safe to fire if enough metal has been removed or that it would be reliable... just that it is barreled and chambered for .45 ACP there are a lot of gun-mechanics out there who often blow themselves up... Let's hope this piece is a little sturdier than that.

This gun HAS been fired, as Cap'n Monty indicates above... But I recommend that it not be fired again until after the forum has had a good chance to examine the changes that have been made. If it IS fired again, I recommend that only mild reloads or standard GI ball issue ammo be used.s

Monty also says that he sees no signs of welding, but thinks we will have better powers of observation for things like this.

Here is a cut and paste from his last email...

Do you own a standard 9MM Luger? Yes How does the mag well compare to a standard frame?
Front to back dimensions are identical. Inside dimensions of mag well are larger. A 9mm mag just rattles around inside the .45 frame.

Does it look like a standard frame that has been "broached" to accept the larger mag? I see no signs of broaching but you have a better eye for this than I.

Does the other side of the .45 mag have a mag button? A button. Or is it also smooth like the side shown in the first picture? Does the gun have a holdopen device and does it function with an empty mag when you pull back the toggle full length?

Does not lock open after last round.

After removing the grip, I saw two small "P" marks on the frame and another mark that looked a bit like a "2" or a "Z" but was neither. On the frame just above the trigger is a small "G"

-Monty

Monty, I wondered if John knew you. In this field of collecting and also P38's there have been "trolls" who say they have a 45 ACP luger and are just starting a excited discussion on the boards. Obviously you do not fit in that category, but that is why people are very careful how they answer this kind of thread.

As you know, they 45 acp is a much bigger round, so the grip not being fatter is rather a surprise to the folks... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> So, I have to assume that a 9mm magazine well was opened up enough to allow a 45 mag to pass into it.

Ed

The last photo received by email... a forward view of the inside frame. As with the others, the Hi-Res photo is available in the Member Gallery Album.

This view shows a couple of inspector's stamps that some may recognize... If you do please comment in this thread, especially if you own a similarly marked Stoeger Luger...do the marks compare to your?

I also noticed that the holdopen spring is not visible in it's recess, so that is the reason that the holdopen is not function... it isn't present. Probably because the mag well has been widened to use a .45 caliber magazine and the holdopen was in the way... My impression is that the mag well is slightly wider than normal.

More photos gang, when I get them via snail mail on CD.

http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...rame.sized.jpg

Hmm,

Interesting concept. By reducing the number of rounds (and using some slightly more blunt-tipped round) someone managed to retain the original magazine length, thus retaining the default frame.

Markings appear to be the standard DWM inspection marks. Indication that a standard DWM frame was used.

I wonder why the sideplate has been redesigned. Probably to hold a longer lever, but this would mean that the sear bar has also been modified? There appears to be some extra milling done on the left outside of the frame. Would love to see pictures of an exposed receiver side, the sear bar and the inside of the side plate.

All in all, I think the balance of this pistol isn't going to be very good and I also don't think the frame and the receiver will have a long life if this pistol would be fired frequently. After all, these were the parts modified by Georg Luger in his trial version, and I don't think he did that just for fun :)

Gerben, I think the sideplate is late version Swiss in origin. They have a full length rib on them, instead of the three-quarter length German type.

I agree with your assessment that this frame would not be as durable as one designed with the .45 ACP in mind.

Two new photos have been received by email from Cap'n Monty...(full size versions are available in the Member Gallery Album.

The left side view with the grips removed:

http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...rips.sized.jpg

...and a photo of the boltface that cleary shows that the standard 9mm boltface was opened up to allow the use of .45 ACP.

http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...face.sized.jpg

I should have the CD photos in a couple of days, and will post them next week, or earlier if I get the chance.

Hi John,

Good eye, never noticed the 1929+ sideplate difference. This one does look slightly different, however (a bit more angular) and I think it was custom made for this gun.

It looks like the rear of the trigger guard is opened up somewhat to facilitate a slightly longer trigger pull. I guess the trigger lever inside the side plate is also modified to push a tad further than normal.

Gerben, if it is using a standard receiver and a standard bolt/sear (only opened for .45 ACP) then I can't imagine why a longer lever would be necessary since the geometry is the same... ???

I can't tell about the trigger guard opening from these photos... perhaps the photos on the CD will tell the story about that...

Now that's a B.F.G.! In a defensive situation I'd expect both the person in front and the person holding the gun to be in grave danger from this pistol. It is very nicely finished though, I must comment. All in all, I wouldn't want it, except maybe to trade for something else, and then I'd be afraid of liability issues. :D --tom

John,

That's why I'd like to see a picture of the disassemled sideplate and the sear bar :)

I'm curious what was done with them and for what reason (other than trigger pull improvement?)...

Okay all you Luger Afficianado's, the photos are here and have been posted in the Member Gallery.

I just added 44 new photos to the album. Enough to answer all your curiosity...

It is MNSHO that this gun was created by a gunsmith (likely here in the U.S.) some years ago just to see if it could be done... and it obviously was. It is unfortunate that the "re-maker" of this gun chose a fairly rare A.F. Stoeger import that would have been a valuable gun in it's own right, as the basis for this project. The value of that gun is forever lost.

The value of this gun in it's current condition is a good question... and I guess it would be whatever somebody wanted to pay for it.

When I have more time, I will critique the construction and remake of this gun and reference the photos... but in the mean time, enjoy the photo album and please comment where you see things that are non-standard.

My only comment in this post will be that it "appears" that the serial number on the front of the frame has been altered... Sorry Cap'n Monty... I know that isn't good news, but I really believe that is the case. The font used for the number "3" doesn't match the flat-topped font for all the other "3's" on the gun...and the grind marks on the front of the frame look like a dressed weld to me...

http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...9035.sized.jpg

I think it is a dandy conversation piece, (and I wish it were mine :( ), but I would question the safety of firing it... despite some obvious reinforcement of the breechblock... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

enjoy! now let's hear those comments folks! ...and be gentle... Cap'n Monty is good people.

This is what I like about this site. Thanks John & Monty for the pictures.

Well, almost "Enough to answer all your curiosity..."

Still would like to see what the chamber looks like. But the other photos are great.

As far as strength goes, I would hope that the gunsmith was wise to run a few strong rounds through it to ensure safety. But I guess we can't assume anything.

Monty, don't fire the cheap Wolf ammo in this gun. If you are tempted to fire it, find a nice low pressure, target round.

Well, we can say it is unsafe, etc., but I would LOVE to own it! Might pop a few rounds through it, might not.

Although the 45 ACP SAAMI is 21,000 and the 9mm Luger SAAMI is 35,000?

So, its pressure in the chamber is 1/3 less? I imagine the opinion is that a lot more metal is missing and thus not as safe?

Ed

A magnificent fantasy piece! Were it mine, I'd have someone custom load some light .45 ACP and take it to the range occasionally just for the "head turning" quotient.

Gotta be some grins there!

Tom A.

Fellows (and gals...),

What is the legal status of owning such a piece that has had its original serial number altered ?

Is our new member at risk with the BATF...??? :confused:

Are custom gunsmiths allowed to do so and re-issue with their own numbers ?

I know Mike Krause makes such pieces from scratch and sequentially numbers his pieces.

How does John Martz handle the serial number when he ends with with one "new" gun made of two cut-up guns ?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

I would think this section, on manufacturing of a firearm would probably cover this? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">�§ 5842. Identification of firearms
(a) Identification of firearms other than destructive devices. - Each manufacturer
and importer and anyone making a firearm shall identify each firearm, other than a
destructive device, manufactured, imported, or made by a serial number which may not
be readily removed, obliterated, or altered, the name of the manufacturer, importer,
or maker, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulations
prescribe.
(b) Firearms without serial number. - Any person who possesses a firearm, other than a destructive device, which does not bear the serial number and other information required by subsection (a) of this section shall identify the firearm with a serial number assigned by the Secretary and any other information the Secretary may by regulations prescribe.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">

The owner of the gun store for whom I used to work explained to me that certain guns were grandfathered in if they were made before serial numbers were required. We had several entries in the "bound books" which listed make model and "no serial number" for older guns. I'm guessing this pistol was converted some time ago, but there's no way of telling. If Cap'n Monty is concerned about his pistol, he can always personally register it with the BATF as a Stoeger Luger with the serial number which is currently on the gun (or so I would think). As usual, what the law actually says doesn't really matter, the law is whatever the officer making the arrest happens to believe it to be at the time charges are brought. The gun may be seized or it may not, however coming forward and declaring a belief that the serial number may have been altered, with a statement that it was not done by or with the knowledge/consent of the current owner (id est cap'n monty) should pretty much clear any suspicions on BATF's part. They are, after all, human just like the rest of us, even if they have an often unpleasant job to do. However, it appears that the pistol was professionally done, and especially if the pistol was purchased from a licensed dealer with a form 4473, then the number is already on record (with the dealer), and it's not the Captains problem if it was altered somewhere in its rather long and convoluted history. Just my 2 cents, this is not given or meant to be taken as legal advice by anyone under any circumstances and may contain errors, etc. legal disclaimer et al... Tom. :p

well said Tom.

...and Dean, Cap'n Monty said he will take chamber photos this evening and email them to me. I will post them as soon as I get them.

No Rush. It's some amazing 'smithin. Check out how steep the angle of the bullets are in the mag in picture 47 of the gallery.

I wonder if the "creator" custom loaded a round specifically for this gun. A .45 with a shorter OAL?

hard to say Dean, but the two photos of the chamber have been received and posted in the Member Gallery Album.

Here is a compressed peek...

<a href="http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralbums/CaptainMonty45/Chamber_bottom.sized.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralbums/CaptainMonty45/Chamber_bottom.sized.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

You are certainly right about 'some amazing' gunsmithing... You can tell it was a labor of love... :)

Any other areas of this pistol that you want to see? Just let me or Monty know. Cap'n Monty has been happy to pull the trigger on his camera as the extensive photo album in the Member Gallery attests...