Luger Steel Lanyard 'Staple'
 

Sorry for the confusion...I'll rephrase... :thumbup:

Does anyone know how the Luger steel 'staple' [lanyard loop] on the back of the gripframe is retained??? :confused:

Press fit? Interference fit? Peened in place??? :confused:

Have you ever removed one? How tight was it? Did it pop right off or require major force to remove? :confused:

Has one ever been observed loose??? Have you had one fall off??? :confused:

No special reason why I'm asking. Just a rainy Spring day, looking at Luger blueprints, measuring grips, checking eBay for a front sight...Idle curiosity mostly... :rolleyes:

To further clarify...It be this part back here... :thumbup:

Great question, Is it welded? I'll take on apart and see what I can! It has to be strong!! Only you my friend! I just took it apart and no sign on the inside!

A very excellent question, since I came across this in my box - forgot I had it and want to rescue the staple.

heat it up?

I broke one once trying to force it out.

I have had one loose, I have had one partly out - but was told they were pressed in.

thoughts?

I'm looking at the inside of my 1937 Mauser and I can't even see the edges...It's like the inside was machined after the holes were drilled...Or they're not through-holes... :confused:

Edit: My 1900AE has the staple legs showing on the inside, so the holes are through-holes...And the AE shows grind marks on the staple 'legs' from after the machining of the inside...

I'll be darned if I know, but based on your observation, I'll bet the lanyard loop is just staked in blind frame holes. I am sure someone that actually knows will chime in soon. :)

drive them out from the inside!
 

Yes, they seem to be machined right along with the frame well in the back, but I learned from JVM to just use a small taper punch and tap the staple out of the frame, from the inside out?... its hard to see, but once one it moves a little, you'll see it ... GT....:cheers:

I see them in my 1900AE...But I don't want to remove it, just know how well it's fitted...If you can tap it out with a punch then it's not very tight... :(

Ed, whats the actual process of of attaching the frame and loop? There is no evidence of internal attachment that I could see i.e. solder or welding! Did every luger of every make have the same loop?

The 1908 Bulgarian contract drilled an extra hole and moved the loop to the bottom of the grip frame where it hung loosely. Seems like a more practical location to me.

Yes. They are pressed in and very tightly. I have removed one and replaced one. Not a difficult task but must be done slowly and carefully. Bill

Ed & Bill -

I don't plan on removing mine, but just out of curiosity, why did you remove them??? :confused:

It was a shooter and I wanted to see how it went together. Curious mind or stupid?? Bill

it was a screwed up frame and I wanted to save that - just in case. Every now and then someone needs one. You know me, I buy parts anytime I can.

My pet peeves, these ebay idiots that take the front sight off of barrels, the idiots that take the rear staple off, the idiots that even take out the taken down spring. Jeez, what idiots...

I remember a thread posted by a member who was making replacement loops--raw stock discussed, precision bending jig to account for spring-back, etc.--but I forget who!

I'm pretty sure that the staple is peened in place and then machined over.
I had a frame that the staple was gone and the holes are wider on the inside, hence my conclusion.

I do not think a press fit would have made the engineers happy as it would eventually have worked loose. JMHO.

Today, I'd just use green or red loktite and be done with it.

It was Olle - the lanyard loop was on a P38, IIRC. He made a bunch of them, for eBay I think...

That uses a stepped piece of wire, on both 'legs'. Olle made a nice bending jig to bend them after turning the ends down. :thumbup:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=29453

Looking at the Luger CD drawings, I couldn't find the loop itself. But the frame holes are straight, and 2.5mm dia if'n I'm reading it correctly...

Were they welded or is this a newer frame where they did not bore holes?

As I don't see anything on the inside..

Maybe Mauser didn't make/attach them the same way as DWM?

I checked the blueprints, (as I am sure those of you who have purchased the blueprint CD already have), and found that the two ends that fit into the frame are round and 2.5mm in size... the holes are also 2.5mm so that would indicate a press fit to me.

I thought I had remembered that there was a retaining drift pin on the inside of the frame, but not according to the blueprints.

While I don't have a Luger with me at work :eek: , also according the prints, you should be able to see the ends of the lanyard loop staple on the inside of the frame as the holes ARE drilled through. They may be staked in place.

IF the ends of the loop are machined to 2.5mm and the holes drilled to that size as well, the fit would be very tight, and if the loop were refrigerated, and the frame warmed up, insertion would be not so difficult... once the two parts were the same temperature, it would take substantial effort to remove the staple.

I would submit that if you find a loose lanyard staple as Ed Tinker has, someone has already attempted removal and it didn't just loosen from use.

Just my $0.02 worth of engineering/gunsmithing expertise...:cheers:

John, Maybe a duel purpose! Firmly holding the frame during the manufacturing process, ie dipping?

As with all my posts/threads, ALL wags/experiences/mistakes are welcomed! Even if they are wrong/outdated/completely off-topic, they can stimulate me to explore avenues of thought I might not otherwise have considered. Others have even admitted to learning something new. <gasp!> :eek:

Pressing the staple in seems most likely. Staking, peening, welding are possible but would they bother with a part intended to only hold a pound of weight (if it hung from the lanyard)??? Probably not. The press fit would suffice.

That the area around the 'legs' is machined or finished after the pressing is curious. My 1900AE clearly shows grinding after the area was milled and then the staple pressed in. But my S/42 only shows the mill tool marks, which would seem to indicate that Mauser at least switched the finishing operations around.

All good stuff. But I'm still not sure if the loop itself will withstand repeated firings with a relatively heavy object hanging off of it...Or clamped to it... :rolleyes:

Ed seems interested in removing his staple from that sawed-off frame. Hopefully he can add his experience to Bill's. :D

Yes, I also think that. Like the stock lug, the jigs and fixtures for those two appendages probably were used to locate or suspend the frame for further operations, and rather than design/manufacture new jigs, the various companies just used the old fixtures. They still served a purpose, even if not the original one. Why re-invent the wheel???

Here is an original lanyard loop. I think they were pressed in and then the protruding ends ground or machined off. I removed one years ago just as stated by GT, with a small punch. . Inserting was more difficult because of the tight fit. I used a small nylon hammer and slowly tapped both sides in. Bill

OHO!!! Now that is priceless! It is a 3mm rod with shoulders/ends turned down to 2.5mm, as on the P38 loops that Olle did. :thumbup:

Thanks Bill! ;)

Armed with this knowledge, I searched TBLAP and found the blueprint measurements for it...1900, P04, and P08...All interesting...It seems to have 'evolved'... :)

What is TBLAP?

John, I think I recall seeing a pic of a Luger [1900? P08?] with a Borchardt-style stock hanging off the lanyard loop/frame 'staple'. I don't remember how it attached, but I think it was detachable... :confused:

G&S, red set.

Here's an interesting observation...Although the late P08 frame notch (the cut for the lanyard loop) is the same as the early [P04, 1900] frames @ 1.8mm, the P08 has longer staple 'legs'...8mm, as opposed to 6mm...Was the frame made thicker??? :confused:

And the shoulder-to-bend measurement for the loop was increased from 3.5mm to 5mm...

It wasn't intended to be used, so they made the notch wider??? :rolleyes:

Referring to this study, you'll see that the ends of the loop were sometimes milled away in final shaping...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=24367

The end of the loop can be seen in some of the photos. It's possible that it was peened and flattened to fix the loop into the frame, and then the milling done to smooth the entire area.

I just ordered this book. I don't know if it's the green or red one, the info page didn't clarify. It cost me $225 plus shipping. I understand they are heavy books. Should be good reading for years to come.

It's a 3-book set, IIRC. The first edition, the green set, was heavily edited by the publisher [again, IIRC] and the authors were incensed. So much so that they re-issued the book with their original (and some added) comments, pictures, and observations. That's the red set. The red set is the later edition sold by Simpson's. :thumbup:

There is a 3-4 page thread on this here somewhere, I'll try to find it.

Here is the short thread on the controversy surrounding the two editions (on page 3) -

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=29036

Ordering instructions for the DVD are in there too, in case your set (whichever it is) doesn't have the CDs/DVD...

Hi Tom,
I own both sets, here is my take. You can't go wrong with either set, they are both superb, indispensable reference works for the serious collector. If you are a book kind of guy, as I am, you will like the green set better. If you want to pull out a single volume you can do so without having to lift the whole case out of the shelf, which you have to do with the poorly designed slip case of the red set. When you open a green book it stays open and lays flat, not so with a red book. The green books are printed on better paper and have larger and clearer illustrations. The red books are said to have many updates and additions, in two years I have only found one, an added photo spread.
The big plus with the red set is the searchable DVD which comes with it. If you are a computer kind of guy you will love it. The photos come in loud and clear and you can zoom in. However, since the DVD is available separately for about $40.00, it's not all that big a plus.
Norm

From what I have seen, loops like that are normally staked from the back. I know for sure that the P.38 and Nambu T14 loops are done like that, and I would say the Luger loops are staked as well. If the holes in a Luger are visible from behind, they are more than likely staked as this makes it much stronger. Knowing how anal the Germans were, I'm guessing that they staked it and then ground it flush on the inside. It could also be that they were swaged, which would leave a neater surface that would be easy to hide by grinding it a bit.

Of course: A press fit is possible, but may not be very practical on a small part made of wire. I'm not sure if I would trust that arrangement either, considering what the loop was intended for.

I agree with Norm. I also have both sets and prefer the green set for a printed reference. I appreciate the fact that photo credits are given...they are totally absent in the red set. The red set does have a little bit of updated material but the real plus is the CD with its high resolution photos. The details are highly educational and invaluable for sorting out fakes.

+ 1 :thumbup:

Many of the images are in the 3,000 x 2,192 pixel size...And obviously show great care in lighting and backdrops... :cheers:

As a side bar, can someone please enlighten me regarding the differences between the terms "press fit" and "staked"? :confused: Thank you.

To me "staking" is what I needed to do as a boy scout when pitching a tent. As for "press fit", that is how my stomach feels in my jeans after an evening grazing at the local $10.95 all you can eat buffet. :)

When you "stake" a lanyard loop, you push it through he holes so the ends protrude slightly on the inside of the frame, then you use a punch and a hammer to deform the ends so the loop can't come out again. "Swaging" is a similar method, but you use a formed tool that's pressed against the end to mushroom it in a controlled manner.

Press fit (or "interference fit") is what the name implies: You press it in and the part is held in place by friction. This requires a more precise fit (IIRC the total tolerance needs to be within 1/1000") so you would normally have to ream the holes to an exact dimension instead of just drilling them. In the case of the loop you'll also need a press tool that fits snugly on the loop, or else it will be deformed when you press it in.

You can have an interference fit without pressing - Heat the hole and chill the pin. Let air cool. Half a thousandth o/s pin is adequate for this.

Swaging is best done with a rotating concave tool to heat up the pin end by friction while pressing down with your arbor or press. This makes a nice rounded dome that overlaps the sides of the hole.

My vote for the Luger loop is peened in place. A special holding fixture for the frame, stick the loop in the frame and place it in the fixture, lower a ram to touch the ends of the loop (inside the frame) then whack the ram with a BMFH... :evilgrin:

Simple enough for slave labor and not time or machine intensive. :)

I use this method for re-assembling Buck 110 and 112 folding knives after I swap blades in them... ;)

Yep, a rotating swaging tool would probably be the best way to do it. From what I gather, you can even get some friction welding effects by doing that, and that would make it stick like the dickens. Like they say around here: "that ain't going nowhere!" :D

And just to argue with you: I just looked at some of the pictures, and looking at how smooth the frame is inside I would guess they are swaged. Staking will often leave marks deep enough to remain after you grind it flush, especially if you use the specialized gun manufacturing tool you recommend. Even a highly skilled BMFH operator would have this problem, so I'm voting for swaged.

I know that many wartime guns were simplified to cut production time and allow for unskilled labor (which, unfortunately, is the way most guns are made nowadays as well...), but I don't know if any changes like that were ever made to the Lugers. I can't recall ever seeing a "last ditch" variation, but they may be out there?

Ed had said that he wanted to press/punch the loop out of his junk Luger gripframe. I would be interested in seeing the inside of the frame where the loop holes come through. Just to see if the holes were chamfered. That would eliminate the need to swage the ends. They could even be slightly loose in the hole and still not come out, if they were peened or even just hammer-pressed in place and then the ends ground or milled.

Someone (might have been Ed again) said that they had observed loose lanyard loops. That they hadn't fallen out leads to belief that the inner ends were bigger than the holes.

We need pics. :)

I repeat what I said in post #15.
We have come full circle during this thread, and all said the same thing at least twice.

Bottom line is no one "knows" for sure; but I saw the countersink with my own eyes, so I'm convinced on at least one luger the staple ends were peened and then ground smooth.