Soon to be owner of a 1916 DWM Luger P08 "shooter"
 

Hi all, my name is Frederik, I live in Belgium, 30 years old,

Been shooting for almost 2 years now, and allready have a few nice guns, 2 of them are war-time rifles:
Schmidt Rubin K31 of 1944
Mosin Nagant 91/30 of 1930

Now this past week I passed by a local gun shop who had 3 Lugers for sale, being that I really like the war time guns, and the Luger had interested me for many years, the look and the way it works, I decided to ask about the prices, because I'm a bit on a budget for the moment, I thought they would not be in my prive range, and the 2 in good condition, a 1920 and 1939 where 1250€, which was a bit high for me, but then the dealer offered me this 1916 DWM P08 Luger, he told me it was dug up after WW2, he didn't know when, but it had a lot of wear on the metal, pitted all over from rusting in the ground, it had been made in perfect working order with I presume from what I have read here repro grips and probably most of the internals have been replaced, externals are matching, just the mag had a totally different number,

I thought it over, and found that I would be perfectly capable of enjoying this gun as a nice shooter, certainely for the price, so I made the deal, now sadly I have to wait for the paperwork, unfortuneley it takes around 3 months here in Belgium before I will have my licence for the gun, wish I allready had it in possesion,

some photos posted, hope they work, sorry for the lesser quality, taken with my phone in the vault of the gunshop, bad lighting

Attachment 63001

Attachment 63002

Big Fre, welcome to the forum. Congrats on our Luger purchase. I am a fairly new owner as well. You will benefit immensely if you take the time to peruse the FAQ section. It is a bit of misnomer, as it is a basic info library on Lugers. Keep us posted on your first range trip.

Thanks Eugen,

I have actually browsed some of the threads allready, and found a few things about what proof I have and stuff like that, I was dumbfounded by how much info there was to find,

I'm certainly looking forward to shooting my baby ��,

And maybe in time when I've saved up some more, I'll go back to the store and buy one of the 2 Lugers in good condition more as a collectors piece ��

From what I can see the gun doesn't look bad at all. We occasionally see them in worse condition simply due to a lack of care and poor storage.
We look forward to seeing more photos once the new baby comes home.
Just for our information, tell us the legal, time and costs of owning a Luger in Belgium.
Thanks, and enjoy!
dju

welcome to the forum - I lived in the Netherlands for 7 years, down by Maastricht, so Belgium was very close. Loved the antique market on Sundays in Tongrene


Ed

Welcome!
Enjoy your shooter when you get your hands on it!
Don't forget to come back and tell us how it goes!

Hi Frederik and welcome to the forum.

It looks like the magazine may have a dent in it along the lower area in your last picture. If this is so, don't attempt to fix it yourself. We have a member here that can recondition it for you using the proper tools. It would involve shipment to the US.

It's always better to use a more modern magazine for actual shooting, as the wood based ones are prone to breakage. Consider a fxo / East German Thalmann magazine (milled welded steel construction) or a new one.

Use only standard power ammunition. No +P or military surplus NATO power stuff. Winchester white box or something similar works well. Remmington generally doesn't.

Marc

Thanks, It's not all that bad indeed, that's why it didn't bother me in the first place,

Hope that it comes home soon, hehe

Legal time and cost to own a Luger in Belgium, there's 2 ways,

First is how I did it, to get a licence called sport/ recreational shooter, which involves being member of a shooting club shooting federation 200€ a year, then you get a starter licence for 6 months to a year, in that time you may only shoot weapons in the club and can't own any of yourself yet, in that time we need to do a written theoretical exam about the laws for shooting and owning a firearm in Belgium, and then a practical exam for each category, A=revolver, B=pistol, C= long rifle non threaded barrel, D= long rifle threaded barrel, exam cost around 20€, after passing we get our full licence, but that license only allows us to own a pistol in .22 and threaded barrel rifles in all calibers,

So for a Luger we need another license, a pistol license carried out by the gouvernement, for this license we need to send a copy of the sport/recreantional shooter license and an official document from city hall that states we have done no criminal facts in our lifetime, and for that pistol license I have to pay 100,67€ and it takes normally max 3. months, but can sometimes take longer if they "forget"

2nd way is to not have a sporter/recreational license, only a pistol license, we still need to be a member of a shooting club, just not a federation, 150€ a year in stead of 200€, so then we have to do a theoretical and practical exam every time we want a license, and to get that license we need a certificate from our doctor telling we are physically and mentally fit to shoot and own a gun, and also the certificate from city hall with no criminal records, so you save 50€ a year on the federation, but then you pay 20€ per exam per gun, and like 20€ for the doctor per gun, and takes more time to make an appointment at the doctors office and do the exam which is only on certain dates, so money wise it's not really a good deal, only if you don't want more than 1 or 2 guns, time wise better of in the first way, ok, you wait 6 months for the sport shooter license but after that it will go a lot smoother,

Few, a long text to write, but Belgium is one of the harder places to get a gun, not that I mind the wait, because it helps to make sure a weapon can't fall into the wrong hands,

So to sum it up,

In my case it costs me:
-200€ a year for club and federation
-1 time cost of 20€ exam and 20€ doctor for every gun I own, so the more guns I own the cheaper it is
-1 time cost of 100,67€ for every time you order permits at the weapons office of the gouvernor, but that 100,67€ is not persay for 1 weapon, if I would ask permits for 2 or 3 or 10 weapons of more it still costs me 100,67€, so the more permits in one time , the cheaper it is

Hope it's a bit understandable to read, because it's quite a difficult process here, but it's not too bad, just the wait is a shame, hehe

Hey Ed, thanks for the welcome, yeah, Maastricht is at the eastern side of the Netherlands near Germany, I live more to the West, but I've been in Maastricht one time on vacation in Valkenburg, very nice city, really close to the Belgian border indeed, the Netherlands is not my cup of tea for owning guns, they have a rule that you can own a max of only 5 guns total, that's no fun, hahaha

Hey Marc, thanks for the welcome,

Yes, could be it has a dent, didn't notice it while I was checking it out, can't really take a look at it as I have to wait for probably 3 months until I get my license for it,

Will give it a look to find a magazine, but don't really know if they are easy te find here,

When you say only standard power ammo, what grains do you mean, necause Winchester is not widely available here, we have Magtech, Geco, Sellier & Bellot and Fiochi, all vary from 115gr to 124gr, or is this to high allready? Else I will have to go search for lower grains ammo, lowest to finf commonly here is 115gr,

Thanks for the tips! They are much apreciated

Thanks,

Will certainly enjoy it, looking forward to shooting it

Welcome to the forum and Luger ownership!! Be careful, as they are most addicting and before you know it, they multiply!! All of us on this forum have said addiction.

Most all of us recommend using standard velocity 9mm ammo in either 115gr or 124gr FMJRN bullets. S&B makes good ammo, and I have no problems with Fiocchi either. You may have to do a trial and test to find what YOUR Luger likes the best......some Lugers can be ammo sensitive.

See if you can locate factory new Mec-Gar mags, as they are the best of the aftermarket mags and are reasonably priced....at least they are here in the USA.

Lugers like to be clean and well lubed with good springs. Once you get yours, and give it a go at the range, you may have a question or two about it. There is a lot of Luger knowledge here on this forum......and nice folks also, willing to help you. The waiting begins!!

Welcome to the forum.

Hi Frederick,
My family and I lived in Waterloo and in Overijse for 4 years before moving here to the Netherlands.. I know what you mean re. waiting times for a handgun license, From what you have written here, our Dutch laws are similar. (If you like, see my post "Ownership of Firearms in the Netherlands" in "General Discussions."

Your gun looks like a great shooter.... I hope the bore is not heavily pitted....

I have also recently acquired my first Luger mainly to shoot it, but I have elected NOT to take it to the range (it's a very nice piece...) so now I'm looking for a shooter. My gunsmith friend, from whom I bought it (a 1917 DWM) and also a P38 ac43, advised me the following ammo for both the Luger and the Walther:

"Subsonic Luger 9 mm- 140 grain full metal jacket" costs about EUR 300 / 1000 rounds. He maintains that it is slower than the 115 gr, and assured me that the load is OK.
There's also a 154 gr version- this runs EUR 18 / 50 rounds. I'm going to check that with two other gunsmiths I have gotten to know, while I look around for a good shooter.

Let us know what happens??
You have a nice day...

Be cautious on shooting subsonic. I admit I have no experience, but the addl. weight out the bore will also mean additional force rearward on the inherently weak toggle system. I'd stay with standard 115 grain FMJ, Sellar and Belloit, Winchester, etc.
Also don't worry about the bore of your new gun. They seem to shoot pretty well thru "sewer pipe".
dju

Thanks David,
I'll check for the 115 gr first
One good thing about the wait we have here in Netherlands and Belgium- we have plenty of time to explore the various recommendations offered on this forum, and do our homework properly. I'm forced to learn some patience as well.

@rhuff: thanks for the advise, the 115gr type ammo is wildley available in multiple brands, so I can search for what is the best for my Luger, prices don't vary too much, I will certainly come to the aid of fellow Luger-owners here on the board for questions if and when they come up,

@Curly1 thanks for the welcome

@Rshaw thanks for the welcome, and thanks for the tips, think I'll start off with the lower grain ammo first, 115gr and 124gr, netherlands and Belgium I believe they are kind of similar, but in the Netherlands you may only own 5 guns at a time right? I do know that for sales of weapons and such there is a law that the BeNeLux as they call it BelgiumNetherlandsLuxembourg can interchange firearms with just one paper, just because of the similarities in gun-owner-laws, which is a nice feature,

@DavidJayUden thanks for the advice, think I'll stick to that, don't want to overdo my old Luger, would be a great shame

I am no gunsmith and I certainly am no Luger expert, but shooting 140gn or 154gn sure seems counterintuitive to me. While a heavier grn will certainly be slower, how will that be a benefit? I would think a heavier grn would definitely place more stress on the toggle system. Try 115grn as we are all suggesting. If 115 grn does not cycle well for some reason, I would suggest you focus on finding out why and fixing the problem. I would not experiment with heavier weights.

But, then like I said I am no expert.

Like I said, I have no intention of trying higher grains ammo, going to try the normal 115gr fmj from different brands to see what works best, maybe try some 124gr, we'll see once we get there, hehe

Finally have it and shot it
 

Hi guys, so my gun license for me P08 came in tuesday, but the store was closed then, so I went to get it on wednesday, and go shoot it right after, first photo is just the gun when I took it out for the first time

So in the club shot about 150 bullets through it, shoots pretty high, I aimed under the black center circle (because I couldn't see my iron sights line up otherwise) 2nd photo are the first 50 shots I took at 10-12meter = about 11-13 yards, as you can see by aiming just under the black center circle I shot most nicely in the black, pretty nice for a 100 year old gun that's been dug up, had a few run-aways but I think that was of fatigue by shooting one handed, not used to that,

3rd photo I shot about half a box (25 bullets) at 18-20m = about 20-22 yards, and the shots where way high to the right, was predictable as they where also a bit high at 10-12m, last 25 was back at 10-12m

Must say I love shooting the P08, very stable and not really that heavy, very smooth trigger, just a few times the toggle didn't cycle the bullet correctly, and bullet got stuck croocked, but nothing serious, noticed the mag had the tendencey to make the bullets stick a little, so I think that's the problem, as a member here replied he thought he saw a little dent in the mag, I believe he is right and I'm going to try and find another mag, original or repro so this original mag doesn't parrish,

As I told one of the clubs instructors I have a P08 he told me to speak to an old member of the club about the dangers of shooting modern day bullets, that the higher charge in them is dangerous for breaking the gun, so I asked his oppinions, and he told me he blew out the toggle, just plain blasted out of his gun almost hitting him in the face, so he advised me to buy ammo with less charge or refill cases myself, so I am looking at buying bullets with a bit heavier head which need lees powder, the old man told me to buy ammo with a max velocity of 320m/s, about 1050ft/s, I researched the most availlable brands and found out that all 124gr bullets have a too high velocity, thinking of buying Geco 139gr bullets, they have a velocity of 310m/s and the head's wheight isn't too extreme, most other brands go from 124gr to 147gr, any thoughts on it, don't want to risk blowing up the toggle system,

Sorry for the long text, but I'm really happy about my buy

Hello Frederik, and congrats on your Luger. Hopefully you can find an aftermarket magazine or two soon and stop using your wood-bottom magazine, which may crack and fail (and be ruined). This is an example of what you want to buy, or its European equivalent.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/137...-8-round-steel

I strongly advise you NOT to look for heavier bullets. They may go a bit slower but they will put MORE stress on your gun. You seem to be doing well with 123 gr. bullets, so I would stay in that 115 to 124 gr. range.

Thanks spacecoast, going to check some militairia events, might find something there with a bit of luck,

I'm doubting about keep using the 123/124gr bullets, as the member of my club I spoke with blew up his toggle, and he had a newer model in perfect condition, might look for the brand of ammo that had the 124gr with the lowest velocity, that might help a little, apparentley Lapua sells a type 9mm with a 320m/s velocity which is supposed to be perfect, but he talked of a price of 25€ for a box of 50 bullets, that's very expensive, in that case I would have to decide to shoot it less, which I would find a shame, because I really like shooting it, thanks for the tips

Hi Frederick,

I had mentioned issues with high power ammo in my earlier post to you.

Best ammo is a 115gn full metal jacket bullet loaded to standard velocity. Here we have Winchester White Box ammo. You have a variety of suppliers providing this load.

You may find the FAQ on our site useful.

Marc

Hey, mrerick, yep, you and some others told me to use the normal bullets, but when someone in the club with many many years of shooting experience (the man was at least 80 years old) tells me that he blew out the toggle of his Luger by using normal present day ammo, then doubt off course steps in, they recommended 124gr because it has a smaller charge and lower velocity, so I looked around, think I'm going to take both advices to heart, yours and from the clubmember, and not take a bullet with heavier head or extra low charge, but take stock ammo with the lowest velocity I can find, looked it op, and the Magtech 124gr have a velocity of only 1109ft/sec, which is close to the 1050ft/sec the old man recommended, the Fiochis I'm using now are 1180ft/sec, so that's on the high side, Winchester white box sits in between both, so choise made, going to buy Magtech 9mm 124gr for the P08, and hope for the best, thanks for all the advice!

I have to question if the "old man's Luger" had a problem other than the ammo. There are many, many folks on this forum and others that have fired thousands upon thousands of std. velocity 115/124gr FMJ ammo with ZERO problems, myself included. The difference in velocity of 1050 FPS and 1105 FPS ammo is totally insignificant, and can likely be found in the SAME box of inexpensive range ammo.

You certainly can do as you wish, but there is an awful lot of Luger knowledge on this forum that I will put up against the one person at your club. your choice.

Did you break down the Luger for a good cleaning and lube before you took it to the range?? I hope so, as they operate the best when clean and lubed.

Like I said, I'm not going to discard the advices of members here on the forum just for the one person, I must note that the old man told me he shot his Luger for 9000 rounds in the first year untill it broke, so that's also a hell of a lot of shooting in a small period of time, and like you said, we can never know if there might have been another issue with the gun which caused the breaking, that's why I'm going to keep shooting standard ammo, but just going to use magtech in stead of Fiochi because Magtech is a bit lower on power, shot it today with 20 Magtech's 124gr and it shot less high then with Fiochi, and it didn't have hang-up's with the Fiochi I had every 10 round that a bullet got stuck between the toggle, didn't have that problem with the Magtech, so think I took the best of both worlds, you guys telling me to use standard ammo and the old man telling me to use special ammo with a bit lower velocity ammo, now I'll use standard ammo but the brand with the lowest velocity out of the bunch, about the cleaning, I bought it cleaned and ready from the gun store, I'll take it apart maybe next week te look at the internals, shot rather nice these 2 days, so no complaints there

Just beware of shooting "Nato" spec ammo, it is about 20% hotter and should not be used.

Who knows why a pistol failed after 9,000 rounds or 10 rounds? Could be lots of reasons, some ammo related some just a bad part.

I don't understand how the entire toggle could blow back or out of a luger, it just does not work that way!

Someone posted earlier that the toggle is "inherently weak"; that just is not so- it is designed and has worked for millions or maybe billions of rounds in its design lifetime. Nothing weak about the design or its execution. JMHO.

Certainly going to watch out to avoid NATO spec ammo,

It surprised me too that this could happen but 2 instructors and the owner of the club had seen the gun after it broke, that's why they where trying to warn me,

The design has workes very good indeed, but in the 2 wars it was in the ammo was mostly lower powered, certainly with the shortage of supplies etc.,

But no problem, standard ammo but just not the highest velocity types, therefore the magtech, they did seem to work better then the Fiochi's

Hi Big Fre,
Wonderful to hear about the positive start with your new buy!
I have been doing some asking around for ammo for my 1918 P08 shooter- here's the result:

original 9mm Luger round = 124gr bullet (fmj) at 1050fps from a 4" barrel.
original 9mm P ammunition, as tested in the USA in 1903 to be:
Light: 8gm/124gr bullet + .35gm/5.4gr powder = 315 mps/1033 fps from 100mm barrel
Heavy: 8gm/124gr bullet + .38gm/5.9gr powder= 334 mps/1095 fps from 100mm barrel.
before WW1, changed to 115gr fmj at 1150fps from a 4" barrel.
Winchester White Box 115 gr.
145 grain subsonic 9mm is reliable (handloaded)
American Eagle 124gr fmj works!
standard 9mm ammo is fine - standard commercial ammunition is OK
DO NOT USE +P, of course. No 147's or 150's either. No NATO

I have not shot mine yet... as I still have to wait until August before I can put it on my permit and bring it home- nice to hear about your experience.

Is the ammo you used Fiocchi 124 gr? Hard to read the numbers on the photo. Thanks!

I have Subsonic 150 gr Luger 9 mm ammo, but have only used that in my P38 ac43 with good results so far. I have not tried this ammo in a P08- although our local LGS did recommend this ammo for both the P08 and P38.

Hope this listing helps.

Hey Rshaw,

Yes, always interesting to know extra facts, I shot the 123gr Fiochi, they don't make 124gr,

Must say with the Fiochi more trouble with cycling the bullets, the Magtech 124gr seemed to work better, so I'm going to keep using those, they speeded up the process for getting the gun licences here in Belgium, took me 6,5 weeks to get it

Good to know, Fiocchi versus Magtech thank you.
We used to live in Belgium- (Waterloo and Overijsse)- always liked the food :)

Yes the regulations can be "an exercise in patience" - I know what you mean about the wait.
Your listing of guns is impressive... the only way we can have more than 5 pieces is to have a collector's license- am looking into that now.

Very nice to hear you are happy with your "new" P08 :)

Re. your earlier comment on interesting facts... there is a wealth of information in the FAQ's as well as in several excellent books.
I have just bought John Walter's "The Luger" as well as the new "The Parabellum is Back 1945 - 2000"
Both are fascinating reading.
YouTube "Tale of the Gun" series is great too....

Anyway, enjoy your "new" P08!

Thanks for the info,

Went to try some new ammo I bought for testing if compatible with the Luger, because 147 and 150gr was 100% no go I found that Geco had an in between at 139gr, thought I would try it just for the reason of wanting to have the facts about it beeing not good for the Luger, and must say to all the people who replied, you guys where right, and I did believe you, but just wanted to be sure, if you din't try it you can never know if it is good or not, so shot the Geco 139gr, after the 4th shot the 5th wouldn't cycle, did a quick field strip at the range and found that the bullet didn't enter the chamber fully anymore, came home and opened her up, took the toggle out and came to see there was a little rim inside the chambre, tapped it out, and the pictures show what happened

The full metal jacket broke open and got stuck in the barrel/chambre, tapped it out, no harm done to the gun, cleaned it out, perfectly fine, luckely,

So there you go, proof that heavier bullets are certainly not the way to go,

Everyone thanks for all the advice, Magtech 124gr works perfect, Fiochi 123gr = no good, Geco 139gr = very bad

Hi Big Fre,
I'm still trying to understand exactly what happened here.
You say "the full metal jacket broke open and got stuck in the barrel/chambre."
This sounds like a defective round rather than ammo which is not suited to the gun.
But I'm certainly not encouraging use of the Geco 139gr ammo at all!!

You are VERY fortunate that the 4th bullet did not get stuck farther down the barrel! In that case, it is likely that you would have fired the next round, (since it would have chambered properly), and then you would have exploded your barrel and likely the slide as well. I have heard these referred to as "Squib loads" resulting from too lttle, or even no charge in the casing at all, but only the primer. Did you hear a faint "pop" rather than a proper "BANG" when you fired that last 4th round?

Scary............. Good thing that you (and your gun) are all right.

There are good YouTube educational videos about this- here's some links:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC7H_8n8HbU&t=317s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1MHKRBPPAY

Here's what can happen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PU4-v433Of0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exGUPC2aP4M

All 4 shots where normal bangs, just the 5th didn't chambre, I know I was lucky, could have been pretty bad, it was just the "shell" that was stuck, rest of the bullet shot out, it was the plating of the head that got stuck

Ahh OK,
I have never heard of such a thing.
.... Until now. Must be a term for that somewhere.

Anyway.... we're all learning :)

Of the 10s of thousands of rounds I've shot over my 61 years of shooting and reloading I have never seen a bullet come apart like yours did. All I can say is WOW!!! And WOW you were sure lucky the next round didn't chamber. I think I will certainly in the future, avoid Geco ammo like the plague. The only explanation I can think of is that particular bullet didn't get any lead put in and was nothing but the jacket. WOW again!

It is called a "failure"!:p

"Bullet core separated" from jacket is more technical.

Such separations happens to a very low % of bullets, and would likely be the primary cause for bulged barrels, JMHO. It was more prevalent in the earlier days of jacketed bullets, when mfg. techniques were not as good.

Happened pretty frequently when guys snipped or cut the nose of the bullet to simulate a "hollow point" ; especially with an open base bullet- the core would just "shoot" out.

A separated case is more common, but both do happen!:eek:

Just my personal opinion:

There two things. The plague, and Fiocchi ammo.

They are both to be avoided. :rolleyes:

Again, that's just my personal opinion. YMMV.

Why Fiocchi?? I've only heard positive things from many about this ammo.