Range Report: Lipstick Bullets
 

This is an evaluation of 9mm polymer coated bullets based on a comparison between:
Acme polymer coated 115 grain, round nosed bullets, and Rainier Ballistics plated 115 grain, round nosed bullets. The charge was 7.0 grains of Blue Dot powder. Every effort was made to provide accurate and equal loads. The Acme bullet has a more rounded profile, and as a result is about .010 shorter than the Rainier Ballistics bullet. Consequently, I seated the Acme bullets .010 deeper, for and OAL of 1.150 instead of 1.160 to provide the same filled-case volume. Both bullets were given the same medium crimp.

Test gun was a Luger with a new 6" barrel. I fired 20 rounds of each bullet at a 4" bull at 50 ft. I used a two-hand hold with the wrist supported on a sandbag. Note that my eyesight is not all that good.

Velocity: Acme coated bullets average velocity was 1239 FPS with and extreme spread of 145 FPS; Rainier Ballistics plated bullets average velocity was 1163 with an extreme spread of 99 FPS.

Accuracy: Acme coated bullets had an extreme group size of 5 1/4" with 11 of 20 within the 4" bull. Rainier Ballistics plated bullets had and extreme group size of 4 1/8" with 17 of 20 within the 4" bull.

Other notes: I fired with 5 rounds per magazine. Using the coated bullets the holdopen only functioned once (out of 4 magazines); using the plated bullets the holdopen functioned every time. Using the coated bullets there were two jambs (perhaps a result of the shorter OAL); using the plated bullets there were no jambs. The coated bullets are also a pain to load. The coating flakes off easily requiring substantial case expansion to seat the bullet without shearing off the coating.

Conclusion: Polymer coated bullets may prove superior in the future but not yet, at least for this brand.
KFS

Thanks for your post! I know that was a lot of effort and time.

Maybe next time you would include a 115 gr FMJ bullet for accuracy comparison?
More work I know, but would surely be interesting. ;)

Or perhaps you already know the performance of a similar FMJ load?

Thanks again.

Don,

I don't have any 115 grain FMJ bullets. I have been using the 115 grain plated bullets for all of my 9mm vintage handguns. I understand that my report is limited in scope but I wanted to share what I had. It would also be useful to test with faster burning powders.
KFS

Karl,

Thank you for your time, effort, and report. This info gives me second thoughts on the coated bullets for my Lugers. I was a bit surprised to see that you load Blue Dot powder for 9mm, as that is not a powder normally mentioned on loading forums for 9mm. Obviously, you have a track record with it, and are comfortable loading with it. I have had very good results with BD in 357Sig brass, but load at or slightly above max loadings.

Do you have any idea why the toggle lock did not function with the coated bullets?? Perhaps a reduced recoil impulse? Quite a difference in velocities between the two loads.

My Speer's Reloading Manuals list Blue Dot, as well as Red Dot and Green Dot, for 100, 115, and 125gr 9mm bullets. Hornady lists Blue Dot for 147gr bullets.

I'm surprised a 9mm case will hold 7.0grs of anything...But Speer lists 10 grs of Blue Dot for the 100gr hollow point as well... :eek:

I shot 200+ rds of "Bayou Bullets" a few years back. My Luger really liked them, but there was exactly zero science applied!

Some of my loading manuals do list BD for 9mm, but a good many handloaders consider Blue Dot powder as a magnum powder, and that it needs to be loaded at or near max loads for it's best performance(no unburned powder). I know of a couple of folks that load BD powder in 45ACP(low chamber pressure round), but that is uncommon......doesn't mean it won't work, just uncommon.

Luger colleagues,

Blue Dot is listed among only four powders for 9mm, 115 gr. jacketed bullets in the Lyman reloading manual and it is at the top of the list in the Speer manual. The 7.0 grain load fills the case to the point of bullet seating. In my experience this is the lightest load with a 115 gr. bullet that will cycle a Luger and the same bullet / powder combo also works in my C-96, 1902 Colt, and 1912 Steyr Hahn. It does require a good crimp for complete burning.

I am hardly a ballistics expert but my theory about the wider variation in velocity and holdopen problems is that despite the crimp, the reduced friction of the coated bullet causes it to start out of the case earlier, resulting in irregular burning of the powder. There is also the problem of the polymer coating not sticking to the bullet very well. Next time at the range I should recover bullets shot into some soft material for examination.

Other brands of bullets may work better and a different powder may work better. I have 50 unloaded polymer coated bullets left. I will send them to anyone who wishes to continue this experiment with other powders.

KFS

I'm totally new to Lugers and the forum. I'm a 1911 guy who's recently purchased an Interarms Mauser Parabellum which is expected to arrive at my FFL tomorrow. So I'm researching everything in preparation for shooting the Parabellum next week. I'm not a reloader. The thread interests me since I've shot the new American Eagle coated ammo in .45ACP and 9mm through my 1911s with great success. The 9mm lipsticks are 115gr. Your thoughts on the use of this with my Parabellum?

Thanks,
Eric

I have also reloaded polymer (powder) coated lead bullets and don't like them for either accuracy or consistency. In my case, i loaded .45acp and was shooting from a M1911a1 pistol. In any case, i found them unsatisfactory and won't be loading them again.

Eric,

I can't comment on other brands of polymer coated bullets. The brand I tested was Acme and as noted I found them to be unsatisfactory despite the increased velocity. I don't think that the bullets used in American Eagle ammo are available for reloading. However, I would be interested in your comparison for accuracy between the American Eagle ammo and another brand using FMJ bullets.
KFS

As do I, for my .357/.44 magnum wildcat cartridges, out of a S&W M27 w/8 3/8" bbl. But I was surprised to see it listed for 9mm... :p

Sheepherder, the topic of this thread is way over my head. But, I must say, that is one nice revolver you have there. Thanks for sharing that beauty. :)

[QUOTE=sheepherder;293305) But I was surprised to see it listed for 9mm -[/QUOTE]


I have some old Lyman handloading manuals that list 4227 Powder for 38 special/357 Mag, among other calibers. Now that is a slow rifle powder for sure!!! Will it work....absolutely it will, but is it one of the better powders for handgun calibers, no way.


If one is stuck with no handgun/shotgun powder available to purchase, many, many of the powders we consider as unsuitable for handgun calibers will get the job done.....just not ideally!!


Many handloaders have gotten spoiled(including me) by having so many really great powders available to us these days, when in the past, that just wasn't the case.


Karl is having good success with his 9mm handloads using Blue dot powder, and it is hard to argue with success!! I might just try it one day, just because!!

I found one Blue Dot load for .30 luger when I was searching for loads that had be used/recommended by members of this and the other luger board.
7.5gr with 1292 mv.

I have not used it, so just listing for info.

Yes, I also have that loading for 30 Luger utilizing Blue Dot powder. It was offered up by our own Hugh C. I have never tried it, but I have it saved as I believe that one can never have too much load data, especially concerning 30 Luger brass.

Karl,

I plan on a range trip in the next few days. I'll try the American Eagle coated ammo along with some WWB cartridges. I'll be sure to report back.

Eric

Hi,

I'm working on a rush job now at work, but would like to follow-up with you in the near future.

From what you are telling me, your loads are in the +P range for a Luger, as original military pistol rounds were 123 grains at 1076FPS (four inch barrel). Hot loads are not good for your Luger's health, nor are they accurate or particularly functional.

Blue Dot isn't a particularly accurate powder in a Luger either.

More Later

Sieger


:atwhore:

I've always had good luck with BD in the 9mm. In fact, it is my favorite powder for the 9mm, and at least in my 9mm's (going on 18 9mm's so far....), it produces exceptional accuracy and reliability. Several of my lugers will produce 1" 5 shot groups at 25 yards with BD, and my Browning GP Comp will hit 3/4". I haven't found anything that would do better yet, but then there are a lot of new powders out there that I haven't tried.... Just my experience.....

JD,

If you don't mind, I am curious/interested as to what loading data that you are using in the 9mm brass. If you would rather not post it, you can send it via PM. You obviously are having great success with your loads, and it is hard to argue with success!!


Karl,

Would you mind sharing your loading data also??

I am always more than willing to learn new things, especially concerning handloading....thanx

Rhuff,

My standard 9mm load is 7.5 grains of BD with a Remington 115 JHP, loaded with an O.L. of 1.14 inches. This produces approx. 1,150 fps in my Sig 226's. I also use the same charge with 115 grain FMJ bullets (not plated, but FMJ), but loaded to an O.L. of 1.17" or a bit longer depending on what your gun will handle and likes. With 115 grain FMJ's, the velocity is closer to 1,100 fps, probably due to the fact that they usually have less bearing surface. I do shoot this load out of my Interarms lugers and my Finnish luger, and it functions perfectly and is quite accurate, with the Remington bullet being more accurate than the FMJ. Back when my eyesight was better (getting old is a pain!!!) I would get 5 shot groups at 25 yards from several of my lugers that would run 1" or just a hair more. Groups from my Sig 226's run about 1.75", which is as good as they do with anything.

One of the keys to good 9mm loads (I believe) is the cartridge O.L. length. For me, longer is better. Longer cartridges function better in my guns and are more accurate. Shortening the O.L. will raise pressures and BD seems to be rather sensitive to this, so you want to make sure that the bullets can't be set back during functioning and feeding. BD also tends to produce more muzzle flash than many powders, but muzzle flash doesn't bother me so I don't mind.

The other load I routinely use in my modern 9mm's is 8.0 grains of BD, with the same bullets. The Remington load gives approx. 1,250 fps out of my Sig 226's, and 1,400 fps out of the 6" barrel of my Browning Hi Power GP comp. This load will produce 3/4" 5 shot groups at 25 yard out of the GP Comp (at least when I do my part, which is getting harder as I get older...). I have safely used up to 8.8 grains of BD with a 115 JHP in my modern guns, but I don't load that warm anymore, choosing to be easier on my guns instead. The 8.0 grain load is the best that I have found in my GP Comp.

I got started using BD in the 9mm way back when, and it has always served me well, but there are so many new and good powders out there now if I were starting to load for the 9mm today, I'm not sure where I would start. Plus every gun is a law unto itself... My Sig 228 shoots nice groups with my 7.5 grains of BD and the 115 grain Remington bullet, but put a 115 grain FMJ on that load and the groups open up to 3 times the size, but that same load shoots well in my Sig 226's and CZ 75's..... Maybe that's why reloading is interesting.....

Interesting way of saying frustrating. :D

And at times "exciting"!! Thank you JD for the info. I will file that away as my memory is less than 100% these days.

Richard,

My load data: CCI primer, 7.0 gr. Blue Dot, 115 gr. plated RN bullet, 1.160 OAL, medium crimp.
KFS

Hi,

Ya, Id like to get those loads too, as I've never had any real success with BD in any normal barrel length 9mm.

Sieger

First range trip with a Parabellum yesterday. It went swimmingly! As per above, I ran 200 rounds through her: 100 rounds of the 115 gr red polymer coated American Eagles FPJ, 50 rounds 115 gr WWB FMJ, and 50 rounds 115 gr Herters FMJ. They all fed and fired well; no failures of any kind using 3 new Mec-gar mags. The red polymer Eagles had the best accuracy, followed by the WWB, with Herters last. However, there wasn't a huge difference with the precisely shooting Parabellum liking them all. I was all grins shooting this thing. It was awesome! Range report tomorrow.

Eric