Seeking Artillery
 

Hi All,

So I'm a long time admirer and relatively new P08 owner. Got the itch about a month ago when visiting a local shop. The guys there cater in fine firearms and happened to have a few decent examples. I was in love the second I saw mine in the flesh. Mauser 1936, S/42 all matching #'s (except mag) and 90-95% condition. Can't lie, I'm obsessed. They're sublimely constructed and ergonomically impeccable. Have determined I'll own at least a couple in my lifetime.

In fact I'm more than a little interested in buying another relatively soon. This brings me here. I'm very sure I'd like my next gun to be an Artillery. Bought Luger Tips and have been studying forums and other information. Feel I've got a pretty good handle on the basics of the artillery. Having said this I'm here soliciting advice. Obviously don't want to go broke but am wondering what I should expect for $2000-3000 range. Naturally I'd like matching parts on an original gun, with or without matching mag, and 90+% finish with sound mechanicals. I intend to shoot this gun but treat it like it'll never be shot.

My local shop is sitting on a number of these but cannot sell until they receive permission from the spouse of the departed owner. This has proven difficult. I've investigated the guns and they're mint. Shop staff are keeping me in mind but I doubt they'll be at my price point when released. No problems bringing another into the shop though.

Best regards,

Tim

Where in Wilmington do you live Tim? That's where I lived before I moved to Kennett
Wayne

I'd think that $2k to $3k should get you a very nice matching original gun, although probably not a particularly rare one. The holster, stock, and accessories will push that price up pretty fast, however.
Just don't jump at the first one you see, but take time to study and watch the market. Watch the on line gun auctions, Simpson, Ltd, etc.
Welcome aboard!
dju

Wayne - I lived in trolley square for several years and am now in midtown Brandywine. How about you? The shop I was referring to is Artemis Outfitters.

DJU - not sure I need anything exotic. Just a nice matching gun. Might ultimately build a rig out of it, but that's long term. I'm not normally one to rush into a thing, but lately I've found myself tempering the need for immediate gratitude. I'm familiar with Simpson. Have considered ordering a k-31 from them in the past.

Question, were artillery guns emmer numbered in the commercial fashion?

[QUOTE=tpellenb

Question, were artillery guns ever numbered in the commercial fashion?[/QUOTE]


No.

George,

I wish to disagree. Commercial artillery lugers were numbered in the commercial fashion. An example is for sale on Joe Salter's website.
https://www.joesalter.com/category/p...ger-by-DWM-9mm
KFS

Those "commrecial artilleries" are cobbled together from parts during the post war era.

But that would still count as an artillery correct? It's not some scam Frankengun built decades later, rather it was assembled relatively soon after the war by a commercial manufacturer and would have hidden #'s.

The post war commercial lugers may have employed surplus parts but they are more than frankenguns. Note that the receiver is marked "safe" and the extractor is marked "loaded" for the American market. Also note the commercial style marking and the lack of military proofs.
KFS

Well,
they are some kind of "artillery"; but one could call them a "Frankengun", just made in the 1920's not in the 1970's.:confused:

Depends on your view point; they could have most any number of combinations of numbering or no numbers. JMHO.:eek:

A couple questions for everyone...

1.) What should make me suspicious? It's sometimes difficult to judge a gun through online auction photos, which I suppose is a red flag in of itself. Aside from mismatching blue or straw, the near perfection of blue, lack of detail, scrutiny of proofs, etc., what are some things I should look for or be on the lookout for?

2.) Similarly, If you had to describe a unique, rare, or valuable feature what would it be? I'm referring to anything which might subtly render an ordinary gun extraordinary.

Not a spring chicken, but not advanced either. Why the advice is appreciated.

Thanks guys,

Tim

Experience and handling many, many examples are the only true school for evaluating a firearm.

That being said, I look for sharp, well defined edges on all surfaces. Well fitting grips with no overlap, no shortness and no slop. As you mention, crisp and well defined markings. Proper overall wear and finish colors.

Short of visiting an extensive collection with someone who has profound knowledge of the subject, I would purchase as many books as you can afford.

I bought my first Luger in April 2016 for $1200. By June I bought about $700 in Luger reference books. :confused::D

Tim, my advice (from a fellow Noobie) is to read and study the forum's FAQ first to get started. It's free. :typing:

Regarding your second question, certain models are rare, such as the 1914 Erfurt artilleries, etc, while other guns are deemed rare by just a marking or number. While I don't run away from Lugers with a rare marking, or a matching mag, etc, I never pay a premium for it either. The rationale being that those are the most likely boosted guns out there, and quite honestly I doubt that I could tell a boosted one from an original. But if I don't throw stupid money at it for that marking, who cares? Case in point the deaths' head markings. Interesting, but sssssoooooo controversial.
Overall experience will help you ID deficiencies. The number of years of experience directly correlates with the % of red flags detected, however we've probably all been disappointed at one time or another.
And internet or long distance sales have a higher incidence of disappointment than close-up, hands-on examination. At the very least demand a 3 day non-firing exam period, and share your concerns here.
dju

The gun advertised as a Commercial Artillery at Joe Salter - https://www.joesalter.com/category/p...ger-by-DWM-9mm - falls right in the middle of the 2,000 gun .30 cal Safe/Loaded range. Without a matching number on the barrel, I would have to agree with George and think that it was a standard .30 cal S/L gun with the barrel replaced later.

I'm having trouble seeing the little notch on the top, front of the receiver. It may or may not be there?

5 digit serial number on the frame, so made before that system was abandoned for commercial guns. And this is another 'Mixmaster", so I think it is a bit pricey.

It's a fun game playing spot the "fake". Enjoyable to scrutinize photos and see blatant red flags. Case in point all straw items on this GB post are blued.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2P0tUV1Cvs&app=desktop

Alright so talk to me about this...

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...ducts_id=49159

Going to well known and trusted sites is your best bet. Simpson, LTD is a good choice.

I did not go to look at the gun you mention, but overall, although sometimes more expensive, Simpson has a good reputation.

I think you need to decide if you want a war time artillery or a long barrel post war luger....

A good one to stay away from.

Looks re blued.. Some parts appear to be rework re-numbered. Might make a good shooter but that's what it is and how it's priced.

Not original. Refinished. Barrel and frame numbers appear to me to be pantographed( again not the way originally done".

IMO, they should have described it as a Artillery type shooter.

:(

Naturally I'd like matching parts on an original gun, with or without matching mag, and 90+% finish with sound mechanicals. I intend to shoot this gun but treat it like it'll never be shot.

Tim, well this is not it.

to help study many:
http://www.simpsonltd.com/index.php?cPath=179_238

Ben,
I'd buy the 1915 or 1916 if I wanted an Artillery; leaning toward the 1915.

Fewer numbers were produced, prices not bad; I did not look hard at either but the descriptions sound ok.

If you call Simpson's up, one of the sales people will take the pistol out of the vault and answer any questions you may have. My sales guy was pleasant and helpful, and most importantly, honest. I bought by CC right then and emailed my LGS FFL and had the Luger in something like 4 days. :)

I think the term 'rework' is overused.

As you hear folks call things a rework and mean by a depot or armory prior to WW2.

Anything reworked post WW2 or suspected should be labeled and sold as such IMHO

I hadn't visited the Simpson offerings for a while, so I took a look. This "Mauser Stoeger Artillery" prompted a question: Why is there no notch for the front sight leaf present on the front of the receiver? For almost $16k, I'd like to know! http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...ducts_id=47107

Nice catch David... I don't think that is correct either.

Even though I'm not into artillery Lugers myself, I have this to offer:

The artillery Luger is a WW-I thing. So, mistrust anything that is:

A) made by someone else other than DWM or Erfurt arsenal.

B) "double dated". According to Versailles treaty, Germany could no longer produce, or possess handguns with barrels longer than 10cm. The 1920 mark is a Weimar possession stamp, hou do your own math.

Here's a thread on Mr. Still's forum from 2005. Unfortunately the photos evaporated. It was a perfect two line Stoeger American Eagle artillery rig with "SAFE"' "LOADED". markings. As I recall, the receiver was properly notched. http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...-Artillery-Rig

Kurusu,

Double date Artillery lugers are or can be entirely acceptable.

The Landjaegeri used them with 8" barrels up to about 1929.
The Navy used them and also marked them during the Weimar era, they were under British control and didn't seem to care about small arms.

So don't condemn them all!:(

The Versailles Treaty and its subsequent restrictions made no prohibitions on military pistol barrel lengths. The only restrictions were tied to military calibre and foreign sales. Germany was permitted to produce enough 9 mm P08s to supply the new one hundred thousand man army and the expanded police force.There is no mention of barrel lengths in any of the protocols.

The blue did look suspicious. Was really interested to see everyone's response. Didn't disappoint :)

John and John - I'm having a tough time seeing this notch, or lack there off.

Hi Tim.
The so called notch is a relief cut in the top front edge of the receiver to provide clearance for the rear sight when in it's lowest position. Many unused Artillery barrels were left over when the war ended and some "Commercial Artilleries" were assembled using these. Even more were produced by Mauser using these surplus barrels for their Siamese and Persian contracts in the 1930's, and a few were even assembled in 1946 when the Mauser factory was under French control. I don't know which, if any, of these Artilleries produced after 1918 had the "notch".
Regards, Norm

That's an awesome explanation Norm. definitely didn't see it first time around. So LP08's without the notch are likely parts guns assembled from P08 frames? Thanks for sharing!