1939 Mauser Banner E/F
 

Hello Gents,

I'm a P.38 collector, a member on the P.38 forum...but occasionally pick up Lugers. I have a question on a 1939 Mauser Banner E/F that I just picked up. It's in very good condition, excited to get it. Has one matching mag. It has the Simpson marked side plate, and a couple nice straw colored parts. Also has an Hza marked trigger bar, but the part was serialized to the gun. It's hard to make it out i think it's HZaJT18. Other than that, all matching down to the grips.

My question is how does the HZa marked part effect the gun value? I know in the P.38 world, some will pay extra...some less. Also what's a ball park valuation for the pistol? I found several past auction listings for the exact model gun, but they were all several years old.....but I'm looking for 2016 current market value. I'm not intelligent in the Luger world....what do you guys think?

Thanks,
Mitch

REWROTE - Well, the Simson side plate would be incorrect FOR MOST BANNERS. A lucky match by number, but those parts should have been out of the system by that time. I imagine someone could say that the side plate and sear were replaced at that time...

Isn't the safety lever BAR a #13? OR WHAT IS IT?

Would depend on how much it went for?

I think its likely to be considered a high end shooter? Perhaps more, but there are issues?

It's a police, Mauser toggle, so I think value is tough. Perhaps $1200

While a police accepted Luger is generally more valuable, the mix of parts does make it more of an interesting "shooter" than "collectable" pistol.

I'm with Ed's valuation or slightly less. Perhaps $1100.

The side plate and sear do look properly fitted. Is the gun's operation good?

I don't know if it is the photo angle, but that is a rather unusual rear frame profile where the Mauser hump is located. Instead of being straight up and down below the hump, this one looks angled...

Marc

Mitch, take the side plate off and look at the interior of it. Tell us what you see.

I can't be that precise about its value as I don't live in the States, but to me:
Pros: very good shape, with crisp markings, Police accepted Luger.
Cons: not matching,
so it makes it a "shooter" probably a good high end shooter, but unfortunately only a shooter, here its value would be around the equivalent of 1,200/1,300 $ don't think much more.
My two bob.

Come on guys.... If you have a copy of Jan Still's "Third Reich Lugers" you will see several such examples pictured in the book. On page 153 it is stated "Leftover Simpson parts were sometimes used on Police Banner Lugers". It seems that the side plate was the most commonly used Simpson marked part......AND I would not consider one HZa marked part a mixed parts gun, if anything, it adds to the rarity. There was only 2290 of these made! How many survived in mint condition....the HZa part was probably added when the Police safety sear was installed. Also, the straw colored parts add to the value and rarity as they were not commonly used in 1939. It has the correct Toggle as well, I've compared it to other 1939 E/F's.

In the P.38 world something HZa marked is usually considered cool. And from all my research the Simpson side plate is rare, and adds value. I've found closed auctions for this exact model, with a simpson side plate for $4K plus. Rock Island had the exact model listed as a full rig with two mags for $8500 a few years ago....( yes, that seems high to me also), But $1100 - you gotta be joking.

Thanks,
Mitch

Hi george,

the inside of side plate has the number 6

Thanks,
Mitch

REWROTE - you have a Simson plate on a Mauser - I HAVE NOT SEEN BANNERS WITH THE EAGLE 6 EXCEPT IN PASSING - AMAWZING THAT YOU FOUND MORE THAN ONE. WE ALL LEARN SOMETHING NEW. BUT I HAVE HAD A NUMBER OF BANNER LUGERS IN MY HANDS AND THIS IS THE FIRST I HAVE SEEN WITH A SIMSON ON THE SIDEPLATE. .

Jan wrote Third Reich Lugers in 1988 - that is now 28 years old - and during that time I have found that many Simson parts were not used for Banner Police Lugers - I would say that you find Simson barrels and sometimes some other parts on Police guns, but I would not say that there was a large stockpile of everything and used whenever they needed a part.
Simson parts went to Krieghoff - those that floated around could have been used by depots or police armorer. The HZA marking, thats a depot, not a police armory. One in this shape, why did it need two replacement parts (or if the HZA is for simple repair, which is possible, wouldn't a depot use Mauser parts, which had been made since 1934?)
But it has an Eagle F on the right - I can see that it is dated 1939, if dated 1939 then it would have all parts stamped in the military fashion, so all small parts would be last two (63)

The sideplate makes it matching? to a degree...
Is the safety lever bar matched, as it looks like a different number?
How are other parts matched?
Toggle, firing pin, rear toggle pin numbered (required after the mid 30's)

I'm not saying that its not possible that parts were swapped at the HZA, but that does not keep doubt from collectors wanting to know why?

You asked and this is my opinion.

Pg 289 in the book- The Mauser Parabellum, "Between serial numbers 4w-1235w some sideplates have been reported to have the Eagle/6 acceptance stamp. This fact suggests that Mauser took over a stock of Simson made sideplates, and used them for the assembly of Police pistols".

Good catch - I will stand corrected that it is possible. I still have reservations about it. The inside number being 6 - thats not one up or one down...

I believe the side plate, cut for a sear safety, is original to the pistol.

On Jan Stills Forum, the following 1939 Police Banner data is posted with E/6 sideplates.
Serial numbers-
4w
327w
1141w
1941w
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...ce-Banner-Data

A very interesting discussion... I am intrigued... Anyone else have something to contribute?

http://advrider.com/styles/advrider_smilies/lurker.gif

I have little knowledge of the authenticity of this Luger, but I find the pros outweigh the cons. If the cons upset Mitch I would be happy to take it off his hands for what he paid for it...and I don't even collect "repros". :)

Mitch

I'm not an advanced collector like many others here but, FWIK, I would agree that probably he vast majority of SIMSON parts were initially mainly used by KRIEGHOFF.
Then, even if that slideplate is "original to that MAUSER pistol", I think that you'll always feel the need to explain that interesting addition to any buyer in the future.
My 2 cents.

Well I can tell you that there are many mysteries of how parts got where during WW2 that will never be solved. In the P.38 world, the commercial guns had secondary priority over the military guns. At the end of different P.38 runs left over parts would be used to start the next run or go to a totally different company. There is also countless cases (especially with Mauser) where a certain style of part was pulled for defect and returned months later and serialized in the current run, even though it had different physical characteristics. Especially towards the end of the war when they were scrounging....Like Walther pulling out left over parts from 1939 to make the AC45 Zero series in 1945. Well 1939 was toward the end of the Luger run, and I have no doubts parts could have been dug out of the bottom of a barrel for non military guns. There's too many documented 1939's with simipson side plates for it to be an accidental number match. The safety matches other 1939 E/F's I've seen as well.

If the gun left the Mauser factory with that Simpson side plate, I call that “original” and matching. It has it’s place in history is as a factory original. Some may have a differ of opinion. But, that cannot be proven otherwise. The same thing on the straw colored parts, which are well documented, why those were used 4 years after they were out of production? Because it’s a commercial gun, and the “anything goes” attitude could have been in place, especially with military pressure on Mauser regarding military guns. I believe I’ll take Jan Still’s opinion regarding the Simpson side plate, sorry to step on any one’s toes.

I completely disassembled the gun, it’s all matching down to the firing pin with several RW inspector marks, to include the toggle and upper. Same RW found on my Mauser P.38 Police guns, you guys know the mark. The safety lever is serialized to the gun.

Does anyone have an HZa identification list? I really am guessing on the HZa number, it's so small to see. I can make out HZaJt, either 18, 48, 49, or 19?

I could use some help with a mark on the front bottom of the upper receiver, in front of the lug, it has “ss” stamped. It's not visible unless gun is disassembled. Does anyone know the meaning?

Thank you!

Mitch

Here is a link to the exact model, only a hundred numbers from mine. It has the Simpson sideplate.
http://www.gunauction.com/buy/10136563

Here is another sold at Rock Island, serial 702....150 from mine. Has Simpson side plate.
http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...id/57/lid/1523

Mitch

You addressed yourself to this Forum with these two questions:

QUOTE
My question is how does the HZa marked part effect the gun value? I know in the P.38 world, some will pay extra...some less. Also what's a ball park valuation for the pistol? I found several past auction listings for the exact model gun, but they were all several years old.....but I'm looking for 2016 current market value. I'm not intelligent in the Luger world....what do you guys think?
UNQUOTE

For what I noticed, more than figures and value people here have been discussing more about the "originality" of that Luger, originality that I'm not disputing anyway.

But I'm only wondering, if you were so sure about this originality, and for what I see also about its value, why did you open this thread in the first place? :confused:

I won't argue about the sideplate anymore. SIMSON marking - no 'P" in the word, easy to screw up, but same issue when people spell Walther - 'Walter' - folks on the P38 forum correct them, as they should....


But this part, what is the marking here?

Hi Sergio,

You are correct. I expected the Simpson side plate to be a better known item then obviously is here, which led to a conversation on originality, which affects value. Hopefully I did not offend anyone, but I had to laugh at the $1100 valuation, seems very out of touch with today's market. Sorry if it seemed off topic.

If anyone can point me towards HZa links or data bases, I would be most grateful.

Thanks for the help,
Mitch

Hi Edward,

Thank you for the correction on Simson. Are you talking about the two numbers on the safety bar? My pictures are bad, apoligies I was in a hurry. The safety bar is marked "63". here is a better picture.

Thank you,
Mitch

thank you, I thought it was either eagle 6 and a number or erfurt and a number
this is a new variation and before you think we are rank amateurs, I co-wrote the book Simson Lugers and co-wrote Police Lugers- I have held scores of each in my hands, and have hundreds of pictures. BUT, I am still learning from others, to not learn from others would be stupid :D

I would not say this is a common variation. I have a police Mauser, 1939, S/42 (maybe 600 police) and there is actually very little information on Banner Commercials

its not what I collect, but I think I am a fairly rounded collector. I was completely correct in suggesting it as a mismatch value, but having it pointed out to me that the sideplate is correct, obviously this is a rarer variation and as all rarer variation goes, they have their own value.
A Banner Mauser - army (nice condition) goes from one collector to another for about $2500-$3000 - a Police, I would add another $1000, probably another $500 for a matching magazine - police matching mags are much more common than army IMHO. I would add another $1000 for such high condition, which, since you know Lugers so well, must be accurate.
I would think $4200-$5000 - but Mauser Banners are harder to sell, Mauser Banner Police even more so, you should gather up documentation such as this thread and keep it.

Hi Edward,

I noticed your book accomplishments right away, was not calling anyone amateurs by any means. I'm sure you are far more knowledgeable on Lugers than I. Look, I did not even know how to spell Simson! LOL. That's a very fair last post you made, Thank you.

Mitch

Edward,

do you know if the hidden "ss" in front of upper lug have any significance? I've seen tons of random letters on axis guns, especially Mausers. That can't be thee SS, right?

Thanks,
Mitch

any hidden marks are always attributed to 'worker marks'; i.e. put there by workers to ensure things were done right. I would think that the 'ss' is that. If any kind of an acceptance stamp or proof I would expect it to be in the open and easily seen.

I agree, but had to ask!

Well.....I think I'll sell the gun. As I'm a P.38 addict, and a Luger dabbler. It sure would finance a nice P.38. I'll have to up my patron dues with John and throw it up for sale with a nice discount in the for sale section. After some proper pics of course.

Thanks for the help,

Mitch

Mitch,
* What straw parts are you seeing on this Luger??
* Also, what color is the rivet holding the sear safety??
Bob

Now that it's more clear about your objective for posting this very unusual Luger, I can understand why a "shooter" class price was not very interesting. I also initially thought that the plate had been swapped, but now don't believe that is the case.

I don't think that Mauser gave less attention to fulfilling commercial contracts than military ones. The contracts were signed and had to be fulfilled. Commercial buyers had different and less sophisticated inspection procedures and standards.

August Weiss would have been responsible for fulfillment of production contracts. As with most Germans of this era they didn't waste anything. A source of older parts like Simson side plates would not be wasted - and probably would not have been used for a military contract.

Assembly procedures at Mauser are known to some degree. One area that has been well documented is they way that Mauser matched side plates to pistols. They numbered the plate inside with either the first 1 or 2 digits of the serial number, or the first digit(s) plus 1. On your pistol, you would expect to find the number "9" stamped inside the side plate and the number "63" on the outside.

You reported that inside the side plate you found the number "6". This could equally be the number "9" upside down. As that is the case, I think that this is evidence that you have a side plate fitted at the Mauser factory.

The HZA marked sear could be on the gun as the result of damage done to the original sear when the sear safety was installed. The number die digits don't look like Mauser dies. As this was done in a depot, and part of the history of the gun I don't think it detracts or adds to the value of the gun. I don't have details of the HZa locations or history.

The provision of strawed parts on a later commercial Luger is also not that unusual.

Finding a buyer at the price Ed estimated in his last post may be difficult since police Luger buyers are not so common. It might be worth talking with a dealer like Bob Simpson (with a "P") or Legacy Collectibles about consigning the gun for sale.

Mrerick,

Thank you for taking the time on your post, info appreciated.

Mitch

Just an update on this Luger. I sent it to Legacy collectibles on consignment, at the advise of Ed Tinker. It sold for $6750 in about 3 weeks. I'm pleased with that. Legacy is a great outfit to deal with, highly recommended. Thanks for the help guys.

Mitch

Thanks for coming back with the price/sale update.
Too often we don't know how the story ends; this helps keep up with prices!
Congrats.