Do you see what I see?
 

This gun appeared on legacies website last week they put it on hold for me as I was anxious to get a hold of it it looks good at first appearance and still looks good for the most part to My eyes.

However, as I was studying it on the computer the other night I noticed something missing. There is no serial number stamped into the second link of the toggle I am not accusing of any wrongdoing by the seller as I have dealt with them a few times and I've been happy just being a 1912 where they first converted to military style serial numbers could this just be an oversight by DWM or do you think the link has been replaced?

I will do a hands-on inspection with it this week as legacy is only about five minutes from where I work attached is the link to the weapon. I would appreciate anybody's input before our she'll out the money.

http://www.legacy-collectibles.com/n...-gun-unit.html

I don't see a number either but the online photos are not that great. If the link is indeed un-numbered then it detracts from the value of the gun, regardless of explanations.
KFS

I beg to differ. The receiver is NOT Erfurt proofed and the gun looks all original to me. The serial number of the middle toggle link should be found in the recess underneath.
Norm

Don,
I don't understand your observation that the receiver is Erfurt proofed. The Reichsadler is the DWM type and the inspection stamps are correct for 1912 DWM. Could you have been looking at photos of another Luger on the web site?
KFS

To me the pictures are not clear at all, although the price doesn't involve an awful lot of money this is probably one of those cases when a good hands-on evaluation would be advisable.

A 1912 dated DWM should have a serial numbered forward toggle. The transition from hidden to exposed numbering was in 1911 at the same time small parts serial numbering transitioned to the military fashion.

I am in agreement that the two digit serial number should be on the outside of the second toggle link (behind the DWM Logo)
According to Jan Stills Imperial lugers about the 1912 DWM Pages 22-23 "Earliest production had the commercial style of serial number placement, Mid-production had SOME small parts with the exposed (military) style serial placement, and last production had full military style serial placement."

This particular gun being SN 7954 I wouldn't really say its Mid production. But with the hands on if I find the "54" hidden on the underside of the toggle link I think it may still have a chance.

Just as reference

Top pic- Military type SN on toggle from a 1912 (Upper Toggle in pic)
Commercial style placement from a unit marked 1910 (Lower toggle in pic)
2nd pic - undersides of toggles with the commercial SN digits hidden on the 1910
3 and 4th pucs close ups of the recessed areas showing the last two of the serial number on the 1910

You are both correct, brain bubble is my only excuse.

You are correct Norm, I was asleep, distracted or other wise just wrong.:o

So any thoughts on whether this could be a mistake at the factory or is this just a messed with piece? I also notice one comment that has been deleted from this thread. Strange I would think all
Opinions would be welcome. I certainly am not thin skinned about learning I am just a student and appreciate all comments!!

Wayne,
My comment was in error, I was looking at a DWM eagle and registered Erfurt, nothing nefarious, I was just wrong.

Too early or too late and my brain was just not connected to my fingers - hence "brain bubble".

IMO, there are "no" factory errors, and if they are you can not use them to explain a "wrong" pistol.

This one likely lies in the transition from hidden or commercial type numbers to the military style.

Read all the posts, and look for the numbers on the side of the breech block and on the bottom of the middle toggle when you get a chance to look at the piece or ask questions.

Don I appreciate it I didn't mean a factory error I guess I should've chosen my words more wisely!
I guess I am hoping that it can be explained by finding the correct serial numbers on the underside of the toggle. Then I may feel comfortable in the fact that it may be due to the transition from commercial to military placement.

Tomorrow will tell

Another case where removing part of or all a post just confuses the whole thread...

I resemble that remark:p.

I think removing a post that is obviously WRONG is the right thing to do; it would have caused more confusion in future to leave it.

Now if the two guys who caught my error would remove reference to it, it would all make sense again.

Guys I appreciate the honesty in this post. Don anyone can make a mistake
Doesn't reflect negatively on you in my eyes. I'm the one who jumped on a gun missing an obvious
Serial number. Luckily I am still not out any cash. I am hoping that the correct numbers are tucked away under the toggle then I may proceed with the purchase. If they aren't I may just pass on it altogether

I recommend that if you make a mistake when writing a post, that instead of deletion you consider editing the your post, leaving the original text and then including a retraction or correction as appropriate (perhaps in a different font or color to highlight the edit). This will leave future readers much less confused... not to mention old timers like me!

John, you made a good point. That approach makes a lot of sense to me. :order:

But, heck, a Luger newbie like me found this thread topic above my head and confusing with or without edits or deletions. LOL

Good idea.:thumbup:

Okay so I just went and did a hands on. The pistol looks right as rain except for the middle toggle link.
It is stamped with a small"1" in the recess under the toggle. Front toggle link, Extractor, Rear toggle link all stamped with the correct number, All parts minus mag (And middle toggle) stamped 54

This includes the grips.

What a dilemma

If the gun is not as described by the seller I think you have two options.
1. Return it for a full refund.
2. Ask for a reduction in the price.
It all depends on how much you want to keep the Luger.


Tom

I havent purchased it yet I am on the fence.

A couple of photos

I tend to think that it is a factory error. I don't see why a middle toggle link would be replaced. Breechbolt, yes, they can be damaged. Complete toggle train, yes, for whatever reason. Just my opinion with no way to prove one way or the other.

Indecision will only get you so far.

You'll end up afraid of your own shadow.

Lol

Wayne

Do what you want but if I'm not totally convinced of what I'm seeing, I don't buy it.

I have replaced a middle toggle link because I found a better one (less pits). But I am not a collector and whether the numbers match or not means little to me (as long as the price is right). :)

(I'll delete this post in seven days). ;)

Even if the toggle train is complete as shipped from the factory, remember that you'll always feel the need to explain the irregularity in the future.

I have a 1936 Mauser Luger with a serial numbering flaw. It's a beautiful example, including the flaw and the overstamp to correct it. It's still an irregularity.

Well, I know this will probably make alot of you cringe But, I picked the pistol up today I couldn't pass.
Even with an unnumbered, unexplained middle toggle link that does hurt the value a bit I am still
confident its period.

A 1912 Unit marked DWM who wouldnt appreciate it.

Well, I know this will probably make alot of you cringe But, I picked the pistol up today I couldn't pass.
Even with an unnumbered, unexplained middle toggle link that does hurt the value a bit I am still
confident its period.

A 1912 Unit marked DWM who wouldnt appreciate it.

Congrats. on your new Luger. A lot of these have some mystery to them, and yours is no exception.
Enjoy!
dju

Wayne

After all the most important thing is not its real value, but the the fact that you're happy with it, so congrats on your new Luger.

Mid toggle links do break. Usually it is the bit that retains the firing pin guide. Also the metal strip just above the firing pin extension can shear off. I've seen a couple of those.

Ok lets get this straight. If I say my luger is a 9mm cal but it shoots 30 cal I could say that it is a variable cal gun depending on the day of the week or the availability of ammo. Now would this be a rectractible statement or am I just confused about the day of the week ?

Evan, I would recommend abstention as well as brisk walks every afternoon and morning.

If I am not mistaken, the firing pin guide is retained in the breechblock. Agreed that the tab that retracts the firing pin could break.

"the bit that retains the firing pin guide" If I'm not mistaken, that is contained in the breechblock not the "mid toggle link"
Oops, Got beat by another Texan

Thanks George, I will try that right after my breakfast beer.
:thumbup:

:eek:


...and if you are actually shooting .30 Cal Luger and 9mm interchangeably in this pistol. Please make sure your health and hospitalization insurance is paid up... and if you are having beer for breakfast also make sure that you have someone else drive you for the trip to the emergency room...:thumbup: