S/42 fire test, jammed b'z of 115 ammo
 

Hi,
I just tested my "new" Luger 1942, S/42. Smith examined it before and told me that it's OK to shoot, I tried 115 gfain FMJ Fiocci and had like 10 of 30 FTE + FTL.
Even last shot didn't bring toggle up.

So far I read that I need to start with mag, is this correct you think?

What ammo is best to try ?
some guys advice more powerful ammo, is it 125?
All above is not FMJ, and I don't want to use it.

Please share your experience, I don't plan to fire it every day, just want to sleep good knowing that I have good condition gun.

Anybody know any good luger pro in SF Bay Area (USA).


Thanks
Mario

Vic,

The failure to (eject or extract?) is generally not directly related the failure to feed, though, as you've demonstrated here, they can certainly occur simultaneously. It's best if your smith has Luger experience.

In the meantime, you can first check for a weak mainspring using the masking tape technique. Stick a piece of tape on the back of the frame , centered directly below the "duck-tail" of the rear toggle joint. If the spring is weak, the duck-tail will slap the frame there, and the tape will be really mooshed if it is being slapped hard. The lighter the mark, the less worry about a weak spring. Wolff springs, or Lugerdoc, here on the forum, will sell you a new one if necessary.

If it is not extracting, check the extractor for a chipped claw, or buildup of crud in its well. Maybe it needs a new spring.

If it is not ejecting, a simple thing to check is a bent or broken ejector. With the toggle locked back on an empty mag, you should be able to tell whether the end of the ejector sticks in far enough to hit the round. Otherwise, the bolt may not be going back far enough--which can be for a variety of reasons. But it can't be doing this and slapping, too.

Luger mag springs are stout and powerful. A weak one causes problems, so a couple new MecGar mags are in order, for shooting.

Winchester "White Box" 115 gr. FMJ is the go-to ammo for starters and tuning. Although Fiocchi and S&B are also fine ammo, they may be a tad hotter than the Win, due to their European origin. No +P, +P+, or anything marked NATO. Most Lugers should be able to handle the 124 gr. FMJ loads, as well.

The Luger mechanism is a grand concert of steel masses, momentums, geometry, springs, and a small explosion. Issues can present strangely or sometimes be a bit complex, but when the orchestra is tuned up right, I think I'm not alone in saying it can play one heck of a sweet song!

In my experience, Fiocchi ammunition is underpowered, in case it gets used in a 9mm Italian pistol known as Glisenti which is not as strong an action as a Luger.

With proper lubrication, and the use of Winchester White Box ammo (available at Walmart, as well as other places), should give you a more enjoyable shooting experience.

Mario,

Welcome to the forum.

The Luger is a rather unique mechanism. As mentioned it is balanced and it's proper cycling is dependent upon that balance of forces.

Most gunsmiths are not familiar with the Luger mechanism. There are a few specialists that have studied it and understand it. You'll also find that experience here on the forum.

Some of the parts you'll need to check are require dis-assembly beyond field stripping. If you're not comfortable with that, you should get it to a gunsmith familiar with the Luger.

In addition to the problems mentioned above, there might also be problems with the chamber which are preventing extraction.

Without pictures or the gun in hand it's hard to help much further...

Marc

Replace the mainspring with a new one, THEN troubleshoot the problem.

John,

From my experience Fiocchi ammunition is not really underpowered. It's much worse than that. Fiocchi ammunition is inconsistent, in velocities and pressures.

Mario,
take it a step at a time.
You must, IMO, start with "known" ammo.
Winchester White box std. velocity in 115 fmj or 124 g fmj is ok, do not use Winchester or any other "Nato" 124 g loading.
S&B 115g ball also works for me. As does 115 g PPU. But go with the WWB if you can find it.

First, strip, clean, and lube with good OIL.:thumbup:

Load one round in the magazine, charge and fire.

If the round ejects and the toggle locks open, move on to a full mag.

If the round does not eject- check:
-ejector
-extractor hook, spring, clean seat

Try one round again.

If it does not trouble shoot at that point, could be:
-hold open broken
-magazine problem, buy a new mec-gar or borrow known good mags and try them
-Mainspring may be too strong- but I doubt it, would be dang near impossible to get in the action

Try the full mag to determine loading and ejection reliability.

Report back in!:)

I am making notes for future reference. Sounds like good advice being shared. :)

Thanks Lifer and all,

Trying to digest your "masking tape" technique, if anybody can point me to any pic, illustrations?
after sticking tape to I need to shoot? sorry bit lost in translation.

* I also noticed that after last shot, when toggle up, I removed mag, trying to close toggle sometime it needs little help to bring it all the way down, it's kinda not closing completely itself, which might be indicator for loose spring. (?)

re. FTEject and "chipped claw"
I have brass ejected from bore and stuck in the opening, so I can see it whole. so I think claw might loosing grip in the halfway?

I think I'm moving into Luger GunSmith'ing...

Thanks all
M

M:
Regarding your very last question, the round may not be hitting the ejector hard enough to be thrown out to the side, thus gets pushed forward again, jamming the works.
FTEject, failure to eject
chipped claw probably refers to a broken claw on the extractor, but that's just a guess.
You have gotten good advice. Good known ammo. One round then several, however resist jamming the magazine completely full. Load 5 or 6.
If you replace the magazine, go with Mec-Gar brand.
If you can photo the "hook" on the back end of the ejector spring (strip of metal on the right side) it may help us.
Above all, be patient, don't go brutal or medieval on the gun. We'll get you thru this hic-up.
dju

Don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but hold the gun very firmly when you shoot it. A loose grip can be the cause of function problems.
dju

Read this thread to get an idea of the area in question: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...nts#post233214 Yes, you would fire a test round.

If it fails to close completely when it is released with a snap, then there is a problem. If you're releasing it to battery slowly/gently by hand, this will happen. Pull back enough to disengage from the hold-open, then let 'er fly.

It sounds as if it's extracting OK, but it is having trouble ejecting, resulting in the "stovepipe" jam. The above suggestions would still apply for the extractor, which might contribute.

Thanks DonVoigt, and all again.

Yes, I preparing for my second test. Will go step by step. Wish I can do it next day, but alas need find a time, will keep all posted.
Note to hold hand firmly is very important. I think I didn't do this.
I did smith inspection, stripping, oiling before, and got his OK to shoot.

Thanks much agin, I'm so happy to meet so many knowledge and willing to help from all.

Do we have here people from they whole world ? I'm US, CA. Moved here from Poland.
I posted some photos below

Best
Mario
S42 Photo Click Here

S42 Claw Click Here

S42 Seat Click Here

S42 Main Spring Click Here

Can you show a photo of the other side of the pistol as well?

If the tip of the ejector spring (flat leaf spring on the right) is broken off, you will get the same result. The spring must have a triangular extension which contacts the front of the toggle (you will see that the front of the toggle 'bolt' has a linear groove in which the ejector spring 'rides'.

In Vlim's line of thinking I would also like to see a picture of your pistol taken just like this one:

Attachment 58736

Also would like to see another picture of the feed ramp but this time taken after cleaning.

Tx Vlim, and all

here is one I have, I will do like above with toggle up shortly.

Right Side with mag IN Click here

Well, it seems you will need a new ejector.

With the action closed the ejector should be flush flat with the frame and not bent inward.

Tx kurusu, I got an idea,
I'll check one more time this flush end when home, and if its moving along toggle, not sure about pic, hard to see.
Will update asap.

If it's case we talking about ejector spring or whole ejector replace?

M

The ejector is one piece, it is itself the spring and has the right angle protrusion that strikes the cartridge.

The most probable reason for the ejector being inwards with a close action is a broken tip in the breech end.

There are a few pictures in my next posts.

Like DonVoigt said the ejector is a spring. If allowed it bents inwards, it's the tip working in it's proper channel in the breech that forces it straight. An image (even a lousy one hopefully) is worth a thousand words:

2 ejectors.

Attachment 58758

Ejector with closed action

Attachment 58760
Attachment 58763

Ejector with open action

Attachment 58761
Attachment 58764

The extractor look to be all there, and in good shape. Can't comment on the spring tension.

I agree the extractor looks alright. I think the culprit may be the ejector.

I suspect the inside leg to be broken or very worn out.

I've marked where I think the problem is.

Attachment 58768

Thanks kurusu and all,
posting foto with open and close toggle,
it's actually not bad, though not perfect like on kurusu' pics, (those looks like brand new))
There is some visual effect that makes that not flush expression, but it's all straight when closed.
but technically is not absolutely flush, but this little deep is same along all length of leaf spring, I'd say almost perfectly flush in the middle.

I'll prepare and try to make new good photos.
So I'll go step by step to troubleshoot,

Right Side Opened click here
Right Side Closed toggle click here

Extractor from inside click here

Thanks
Mario

Your ejector seems to be alright.

The problem is somewhere else.

If possible get a new magazine. You will have to follow the tests DonVoigt recommended and then report back.

PS. The 2 ejectors in the picture are new. They are spares that I keep just in case. :rolleyes:

Mario,
please post the pictures on the server here.
Some of us don't use the outside links. The pictures will also eventually disappear if hosted elsewhere and thus the thread will lose its value.

Mario

This may look like a stupid question.. but, have you cleaned the chamber well? Even my most trusted shooter will frown at me if I neglect cleaning it after more than 300 rounds.

Hi Kurusu,
I gave it to shmith, he made field strip clean and exam, said it's save to shoot to try, I shoot like 25 rounds.
It was 2 weeks ago when I was fresh Luger carrier and just got it.

I still not completely undestand how extractor works, saw this video bit strange, looks like brass pushed forward and then bounced out
, or maybe it's just not perfect case.
Luger high speed P08 slow motion 1000fps XLMoby(c)

I plan now do complete detailing, probably ultrasonic and will try another mag.
Thanks again for all your help.

* I will put pic on server, didn't know about this feature.

Best
Mario

I don't think the luger in that slow motion is working correctly!

The EXTRACTOR pulls the cartridge from the chamber, it is the piece top center of the bolt.

It is the EJECTOR that strikes the bottom of the cartridge and forces it up and out of the action.

In that picture it does not look like the extractor is holding the shell long enough for the ejector to strike it, but that it just "finds" its way up and out from the residual gas in the chamber/bbl.

JMHO.

I agree. It appears to flip 180 degrees before exiting, as well! Why would anyone post this crazy video?

This one is better. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrrMe_Y9zy8

This animation shows it "by the book". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DZ-DnTI_A8

That is why I suspected the ejector. Since the round is drawn from the chamber, the extractor appears to do its job, but the ejector should launch the case out, assised by the upward motion of the next cartridge in the magazine.

You may want to look at the extractor spring also. A small coil spring underneath the extractor. If it is too weak it will also cause ejection problems. I remember having a parts luger that managed to extract the cases, but would violently bounce them against the innards of the pistol before it was pushed out by the next round/magazine. All cases had a small dent on one side. The cases that did manage to eject usually ended up agains my forehead, in my collar or at other uncomfortable places. After replacing the extractor spring, the ejected cased went straight up and over my head, as they should do.

Hi all again,
I did another round of cleaning, and used other mag from expert who said this mag should work OK and got pretty much same result.

and after last shot with super hard hand I don't have toggle locked up, so I plan to change main spring.
Already made tool for change,
Can anybody recommend good place to buy new spring, I assume it should be new, no need to buy W2 era one. (?)

THanks
Mario

Wolff Gun Springs is the best source for high quality springs, outside of oem.
https://www.gunsprings.com They have several different springs for Lugers.

I buy most of my springs for my various guns from the them.

How many different brands/weights of ammo have you tried?

There is an item in the FAQ that will help you select the correct replacement spring. It lists the spring specification for each of the variations of Lugers.

We already recommended that you check how hard the toggle is hitting the back of the receiver by putting some masking tape at the rear of the receiver.

Have you checked the small leaf spring that holds down the hold-open?

tx all,
tried
115, 124 FMJ Fiochi
and
Fiocchi Shooting Dynamics Ammunition 9mm Luger 158 Grain Full Metal Jacket Subsonic Box of 50
and
Winchester PDX1 Defender Ammunition 9mm Luger 147 Grain Bonded Jacketed Hollow Point

Well,
don't expect sub sonic or 147 gr to work.

Try some 115 gr winchester white box, S&B, Magtech or brass Blazer.

I have had good success with all.

Fiocchi is hit or miss.

skip, skip, down, didn't read anything else

So, lets ask, who is Smith?

Not use FMJ - why?

Use one mag - why?

Sounds like you're limiting yourself for reasons I can't figure out...

Ammo underpower - ammo overpowered - its a fine line, +P is crazy - underpowered will cause problems.

The different weights will cause issues with slowing the toggle and upping the pressures - but not always making the gun work different. I think you need to settle on a few normal rounds, like winchester white box and remington - pick one FMJ and see how it works. Or is it you are not really in California and can't just pick up ammo of your choosing?

a magazine can be a major problem, but not firing FMJ, what are you wanting this pistol to do?

Thanks Edward, and all again.

Yes, I think main question is <what are you wanting this pistol to do>, I plan to keep it save for future generations, and won't make it my shooting pistole.
I just explore it a bit, it's my first arm + I like to have everything in order, or at least know what is wrong .

I'm very comfortable now with all choices, I will probably will retry single shot with recommended ammo, maybe will buy new spring , and then keep it box.

Best
M