Why was the "X" marked on RC / VoPo Lugers?
 

While I think I know the reason, I have yet to find any factual evidence as to why the "X" was stamped on Russian Capture (RC) and Volkspolizei (VoPo) Lugers.

I can think of two logical explanations.

The first (which I think is most likely) is similar to the logic behind the Weimar "1920" property mark. Everything after the war that was captured or turned in to the Russians got marked to prevent the gun being turned in a second time for a reward, and to indicate that it now was Russian property.

The second explanation is that the large "X" was added after the firearm had been through the Russian rework program.

Does anyone have a factual source to confirm why the large "X" was stamped on these guns? At a minimum Lugers and K98 rifles have this mark.

Thanks, Marc

I would not combine RC and Vopo with respect to the "X".

Many Vopo lugers do not have an "X".

I see the X most often on the RC "dipped" weapons, lugers, P 38s and K98s.

I've never seen an explanation of why the "X" was applied; I'm pretty happy just knowing that it appears on RC's.

If I had to choose an explanation, I'd choose door # 2, "x" after refurb, before dip. The ones I've seen are under the finish.

JMHO.

I have only heard rumours, and they usually go like this;

1. The 'X' is put there to represent Mosin Rifles (and as said above, they are seen on russian capture).

2. The 'X' represents that it went through acceptance into the Russian storage or that it showed it was okay to SELL and was actually placed there AFTER its long storage.

I do believe some russian captures ended up as Vopo - I need to look again in Marshall's book, but in the East, I think sometimes they issued some back from storage.

This is a Vopo for sure that I bought and although the 'X' is not on the side or front of the frame (where I have seen them the most), it is an 'X'

My VoPo (re-barrelled 1921; unused since rework, with bullseye grips) has the big "X" on the axle pin... (which is also a mismatch, so it could be for indicating that). This one is under the refinish too...

Marc

I would not call the axle X a typical "X" that I thought you were questioning.

I think you are correct that that particular x is just a cancellation mark.

Ed,
I never said a Vopo could not have an "X", only that many do not.:cheers:

My understanding was that the x's were used to obliterate the mismatched serial or part number... :rolleyes:

So, we have two usages of "X". One to obliterate mis-matched numbered parts' numbers, and the second - predominantly on Russian Captures, and found on some VoPo guns.

It is the second (like the one on the frame in Ed's post #3 above) that I'm asking about.

I'm liking Don's "Refurb before Dip" reasoning.

Marc

Since the FAQ is for new folks and those who want to find the truth; I think we should either state it as best guess(es) or actual facts. Or our integrity could be called into question :)

The Russians took care of all the firearms captured from the Nazi, as they feared to be attacked again and I think that remained a big concern to them for decades after the WWII.
AFAIK all foreign guns were taken down, and fully reconditioned, often but not always all the waffenamt were obliterated, renumbered, then stored neatly away separating all the parts, (barrels with all the barrels, stocks with all the other stocks, frames ect...) as the occurrence arised some were sent to the Chinese Communists, then later to Korea and Viet-nam. Later on, around early Nineties they started to sell lots of those guns to the West, as they were already outdated firearms.
I bought my first Luger in those years, it was a Soviet capture Mauser P08 obviously with a big cross representing two crossed Mosin rifles bit still with all its waffenamt intact.

Regards.

"AFAIK all foreign guns were taken down, and fully reconditioned, often but not always all the waffenamt were obliterated, renumbered, then stored neatly away separating all the parts, (barrels with all the barrels, stocks with all the other stocks, frames ect...)"

None of the RC K98s or pistols I've ever seen would support this premise. Most RC K98s I've seen are largely complete and matching, with a mismatched bolt or other small part being typical. This would indicate complete guns were stores and only small parts that needed replacement were added before releasing the weapons for issue or sale.

Why would they have completely disassembled a rifle or pistol, which had been expertly hand assembled, seated, bedded, trimmed etc. and split the components up, only to have to carefully assemble a jumble of unlike parts later? The Russians had space to spare to stack complete rifles like cordwood as far as the eye could see. Removal of the bolts is the only measure I could see that would allow "control" over the inventory and insurance that live guns were not finding their way out the back door.
In fact, a quite plausible reason for the "Bullseye" VoPo grips I have heard is that captured Lugers were dumped wholesale into 55 gallon drums full of oil as a storage method. When removing the pistols for issue, they found that the long term oil immersion had turned the wood grips to putty, thus the development of the "plastic" grips for issue.

My own theory is that they did that in order to standardize the procedure, and make it more suited to process large amounts of guns. The captured guns could be anything from fresh out of the crate to battlefield pickups, and there must have been tons of guns to process as well. With so many guns of different flavors, I suspect that it was probably quicker and easier to do every gun the same way, instead of having them graded, inspected and repaired individually.

Gun comes in, grips in one bin, mags in one bin, slide in one bin etc., one guy gauging barrels, one guy inspecting frames etc. Then an assembly line at the other end of the arsenal, where the workers picked refinished parts out of the bins, fitting them if necessary. Pretty much like in new production, but with used parts. It was probably easier to do it like that, rather than keeping track of every part for every gun throughout the process.

Obviously, some were not even assembled, but were stored as parts. These would be even more difficult to keep track of unless you put all the parts for each gun in one bag, and that's probably not the most rational way to store large numbers of disassembled guns.

The big mystery is why they did it at all. It seems like the vast majority of the guns was put in storage anyway, so it would have made more sense to just dip them in Cosmoline (or the Russian equivalent).

Quite the opposite. It takes far longer to rebuild individual weapons than it does to simply inspect, repair and issue.

And that premise simply does not jibe with the empirical evidence that I and most of the people I talk with have confirmed; Almost all RC capture firearms ARE MOSTLY, (if not all) MATCHING. Only sometimes small parts are force matched to achieve function. A complete takedown and rebuild for each weapon is against all logic and simply not how government arsenals would work;

They would take a stored weapon, inspect it, determine if it is serviceable or needs work. Add the parts that are necessary, test fire and out the door. You of course are going to run into basket cases that are going to be built up from a hodge-podge of parts, but they are the exception, not the norm.

I agree with Alanint, no way they were all dis assembled and then built.
Too many are mostly matching and some even all matching!

Would have never happened with the way Ollie envisioned.

JMHO, but the bottom line is "we don't know", and can't answer Marc's question.

The problem with all the maybe's and perhap's somehow, in this crazy world, one or more will become an established fact. Then some author will put it in a book .Once established it's hard to change. Bill

I'll be revising the FAQs to reflect what we discuss here on this issue.

Doug

How come that the vast majority of all the K98K that are being sold here are RC and have all the same reddish sort of stock, a new s/n written with an electric pen, the usual big "X" and sometimes the waffenamt cancelled, and believe me I don't want to contradict you Doug but they are NOT matching at all, apart from the fact that genuine matching K98K are practically non existent , I can assure you about that , I used to collect K98K and I had a biggish number of them in the safe at the time. :confused:

thus why I wanted to be sure what we said on the FAQ was stated as best guesses or empirical evidence.

I go along with the premise that guns were stored in oil - I have talked to folks who went over to look at the Lugers and K98's and the plastic grips are made newer than the 40's.
Two separate guns

RC - usually dipped - grips replaced - many times matching - usually an 'x' on them - probably never used

Vopo - reconditioned and then used by the East Germans, usually matching either force matched or original, with vopo grips, matching, to include magazine (2/1001 marked magazine)

Ed has described very well the "difference" and properties we observe on pistols imported to the US.

I would only add that the Vopo luger, has an "X" sometimes- not always, and often a different style of "X" than is found on a RC. To get way out on a limb, maybe 75% or more of Vopo lugers do Not have any "X" at all.

The only theory I can offer you, Sergio, is that the premier surplus stocks are finding their way to our, (US) market, (the most important market for these types of surplus sales on earth), and your market is getting the leftover "basket case" junk that our importers passed over.

Maybe you're right Doug about ... the basket case junk that your importers passed over..., I don't know for sure, I'm not an expert on anything, but let me say that it's pretty strange though.
In another forum long ago I "met" a young chap from the States that was stubbornly convinced to have a full original all matching K98K of Russian capture, and he affirmed that in the States full matching K98K were not difficult to find... :rolleyes:
On the other side I've got some German friends that have started collecting K98K many years before me, and they are still collecting, but I remember that they confirmed what I said above.

Absolutely true, although Ed doesn't need me to confim it, but absolutely here we are talking about two different catagories of pistols.

Fully correct K98s are not hard to find here, although what I call the internet-driven Hoarder's, (not Collectors) Market has driven prices up over the last ten years. Many of these are vet bring backs, but most of what is on the market today are reimports, be it from Russia or wherever else.

Again, I don't how else to state this, (and from the many "thank yous", our equivalent to FB "Likes", many of our most knowledgeable members agree), but in this market most of the imported surplus firearms are complete, intact, mostly if not all matching. Other than the theory I proposed above, I cannot account why the examples in your market are so poor.

Well,
Italy and the US are a continent and an ocean apart.
There is no doubt in my mind that there are different "qualities" of RC weapons for sale, or were.

What one sees in any given market is the result of who, where, when, and how many were purchased at the time. JMHO.

I agree if we talk about 1911 pistol, but about K98K I respectfully disagree, apart from me, I know that top notch German collectors in the past years have found a lot of people in the States genuinely enthusiast but perhaps not enough informed.

And yet the rifles are here, mostly if not all intact, as examined by many, many knowledgeable people.
I don't know where your German friends get their information, but they are incorrect, in this case.

Doug,

As I repeat I'm not an expert on anything, I've been collecting K98K many years ago, I live in Europe and I've got experienced collectors friends also in Germany, I only tell you that the market is chock full of "turds" as K98 Mausers as well as Luger pistols are among the most "faked" of all collectible arms, and these beautiful guns have been faked and restamped with new markings for many years now, and it's very, very difficult believe me, to tell a genuine original one from a fake or from some sort of a "put" together to make matching.
I can assure you that many serious an experienced K98K collectors have got burnt on that, .
Fakery now is worse than 1911s. Some of the original factory stamps, captured from the factories, are out there and there are complete sets of fake stamps available. The fake stamps are getting better/closer to originals. It is a swamp, believe, that's why I stopped collecting them.
The best site on K98s is the K98kforum with the three book series authors there, not to mention most of the contributors. They are rarely fooled. Having the three book series is essential IMO, the middle book is coming in less than a year and will be massive.
Long time ago I hung out with these guys and attempted to learn more... :rolleyes:
K98K are a deep swamp with more than 90% being total fakes and many of the remaining 10% not being totally original, but only "correct".
The prices were skyrocketing, and snipers K98 were worse still!
A common example, like a byf 44 (wich is probably the most common of all codes) in just decent condition like 75% if all original and complete brings the equivalent price of about $2000/2500. Then the snipers perhaps about $10-35K. :eek:


Kind regards and have a nice week end.

Not a question of being "informed" , only having eyes to see!

I totally resent your insult and implication that somehow "German collectors" have a corner on knowledge of firearms!

I would dare say that there are more "correct" K98 rifles in the US brought back from their former owners possession; not to mention the largest market in the world for surplus firearms, like the RC rifles.

You know not of what you speak.:mad:

This has gotten bizarre. German collectors now know more about our market than we do and 90% of the K98s here are fake?

I am also concerned at the "dis" to our knowledge base here.
I think I'll step away from this, as I have done my best to illustrate simple facts and my own empirical observations.

This has certainly drifted away from the original topic I posted.

I think that the one thing coming out of this thread is that to combat the boosting and faking of any of our collector firearms, we need good databases, documentation and the ability to compare and evaluate known original copies.

As values rise, and there is money to be made, it's safe to assume that people will work to defraud collectors.

If those of us with experience work together, we can combat and defeat those that would victimize us.

Perhaps a new constructive thread on that issue is due. This thread feels like it's had it's day...

Marc