Regarding Concentric Circled On Navy Mags
 

I have always wondered why only the navy lugers shared this unique feature. If it was there for naval conditions only, it seems equally useful for use in the muddy and wet trenches of WW1~ Eric

Every service has its peculiarities and vanities. It is not unusual to see branches add silly things to weapons and gear, just so they can call it their own.

I submit that it may have been functional by design. Perhaps to allow better grip with a sailor's wet hands?

John, I would agree but it seems everyone had wet hands especially in that war~ It was a good idea! The Swiss Seems to have designed the best~ They probably wore gloves!!!

Since the Navy adopted the Luger four years before the Army did, one could make the case that this was an instance of the Army "adding a silly thing so they could call it their own". In reality I'm sure that this was done to simplify high volume production.
Norm

And maybe the finest~

Given that the Navy adopted the 9mm Parabellum in 1904, the concentric ring mags were probably a carry-over from the commercial 9mm pistol which were the first to use the concentric ring magazine.

While on the subject, Please remind me whats the tiny hole is for?

So you can press the follower button out.

Close. Initially it was used to stake the follower button to the follower. Later it could be used to press the follower button out.

Ron you never cease to amaze me!! Eric TKS

This was covered in Napca years ago and again on this forum as well. Originally the concentric circles showed a mag to be 9mm and there was also a very slight difference in at least one dimensional aspect. This was proven by factory drawings. The Navy was the first to adopt the 9mm caliber and with the guns came the 9mm concentric mags. So the navy guns and Concentric became associated. But in the beginning it was for 9mm identification, not Navy identification. Earliest Commercial 4" Lugers were shipped with concentric mags marked 9mm as well. Because in those days the concentric meant 9mm not Navy.

Is it possible that the naval manufacturer or supplier of magazine parts was different than the Armies, and so the wood worker did them as he was taught? Or were all magazines and parts made by or subcontracted to the same manufacturer?

David, although possible in the strictest sense, it is unlikely to the highest degree. As fastidious as the Germans were about specifications, any subcontractors were held to strict guidelines and configurations, so they did not produce things willy-nilly based on their whims! In systems with interchangeable parts, this is also important. My impression is that although holsters had many different makers, the parts for the guns themselves were produced mostly in-house. Precision rod stock for pins, carbon steel flat stock for springs, probably came from suppliers... I'd say Chris has made a good call on the situation. Geo. Anderson's observations and advice are very highly regarded, as well!

Very Very Good! Germans love uniformity~~ In my Ludwaffe handbook they even dictate how to fold their cloths correctly! No such thing as individuality and I am sure that uniformity applied to every aspect of Nazi daily life~There is a reason for every thing the produced within regulations and retentiveness. A hundred luger holster makers and all the same except for a few different models. I would of course defer to my friend, Jerry!

Do all Navy Mags have the concentric rings, or do some exist that do not have rings?

Yes, There were those without the rings.

I read somewhere (I believe it was in an article by Kokalis in SGN) that the full dish was meant to reflect light to make the mags easier to find if you dropped them. It sounds a bit far fetched to me, so is there any documented truth to this?

Olle, Yup! That's the reason. Imagine losing a magazine in the dark. A highly reflective disk may reflect moon or starlight..just enough to let you spot it. Pretty smart innovation in my opinion.

Yeah.. In a way. Highly reflective parts on military firearms would be a no-no in my book, but maybe it was ok back then?

I guess they didn't have flash lights yet!!!

...and the shiny mag body wasn't enough to reflect light? Somehow I doubt that wives tale about the reflective disk...

Doubt it all you like. It's true. AND it works. The disk is highly polished and reflective unlike mag bodies. The Swiss and Dutch were highly innovative and requested many changes to German design. But lets say it's NOT to help find dropped magazines in low light..then what conceivable reason is it for? Remember the Swiss constantly tried to simplify and improve..putting these discs in mag bottoms is not simpler.

...to make it easier to tell at a glance that there is a magazine in the gun...a similar visual cue to the polished safety marking...

--Dwight

Dwight, good point! I have forgotten where it was written that it was to spot lost magazines in the dark but your point could well be in addition to mine.
I am pretty sure the Swiss did not do this for no reason.

In fact I agree.

It;s easy to say that's NOT what it's for. What IS it for then? It's NOT for nothing.

Perhaps it is "for nothing", just decorative?

Good point. But, while I am new to Lugers, I still can't understand why anyone would want to add shiny, potentially reflective components to a tactical weapon that could give away one's position. What Army would do that? :confused:

Swiss Luger's were housed in fully enclosed holsters. When the pistol was employed the reflective disc was the least noticeable thing..

No it was NOT "decorative"

I am wasting my time here. You must be aware of Swiss history and the Luger pistol or all this is lost. The Swiss made all modifications from German design for "specific"
reasons. They made many design changes. None of them enhanced the beauty of the pistol.Their intent was to improve function and ease manufacture. In this they were wildly successful. But to cavalierly state that this disc was placed there for either no reason at all or for "decorative" purposes denies the history of Swiss interest in the German Luger.
Lazy thinking for any of these spurious arguments. I expect a little more intuitive critical analysis from you guys.
Inserting this disc added considerable time, trouble and expense. Decorative? For no reason? These responses are not well thought out and on the wrong side of known history.

I believe that this response has been "thought through" Jerry. Please lighten up a little. Opinions are like elbows... and everybody has some.

I think the "original" design which had two concave surfaces was intended to fit the convex surfaces of the thumb and finger tips. Nothing more and nothing less. The protruding "knobs" at the bottom of the magazine were a departure from any gun magazine designs of the period, I am sure they had a decorative or aesthetic purpose as well, and that would be to complement the unusual, graceful, and completely unique mechanical engineering design of the toggle top semi-automatic pistol we all know and love.

As far as the metal disk that was added by the Swiss? I also admire Swiss precision and believe it to be functional, but not to make a dropped magazine easier to find in the dark.

How many Luger magazines have you come across in your collecting that had been dropped and had large chips of wood missing including the edge of the knob? I think the Swiss knob with only a raised edge and flat bottom is a stronger design that might be stronger and more resistant to chipping the entire bottom if dropped. I also believe that the gluing of that metal disk onto the flat recess, not only looks good but provides reinforcement to the mag bottom, making a dropped magazine more likely to chip only the edge of the knob.

I also remember that this knob design was a continuation and evolution of the type of magazine bottom that was originally used on the Luger's predecessor... the Borchardt, Only smaller and more appropriate for the Pistole Parabellum re-design.

BTW, I have never considered any time you have spent here, or any contributions you have made to the Luger collecting community to be a waste of time, and doubt anyone else has either...

Just my $0.02, but not everyone bothers with pennies these days. :cheers:

Jerry,
just because you don't like my answer does not mean it was not "well thought out".:(

I can think of no reasonable "reason" to put that metal disc in the
magazine pull.

It is strange and I have always thought it redundant and of no purpose.

Perhaps you can create a list of possibilities for its presence or use, I can't.

You are absolutely correct that it took extra time and expense.

If it had a significant , important use- why was it later eliminated from the Swiss magazines?:confused:

Lighten up? John, You know me better than some others..I am nothing if not passionate when I believe in my side of a discussion. Luke warm is not a temperature I am used to using.

but not to make a dropped magazine easier to find in the dark. And why not? The argument that it's decorative? PLEASE..let us drop that one into the ash can once and for all. There were no Ladies on the Swiss ordenance boards. That is less than any kind of argument. Remember..COST. Function of a military weapon of war. THESE were the primary goals.

The disc in my opinion does not make the wooden bottom stronger. By insertion of this thin disk the edges become thin and vulnerable. Impact onto the edges of a metal disc inserted could very well make the wood extremely fragile. But for argument sake lets say it does. WHY then not make it black? BECAUSE that was not it's function.. It is as highly reflective as a glass mirror. This trait was not by accident.

I think the "original" design which had two concave surfaces was intended to fit the convex surfaces of the thumb and finger tips. Yes..undoubtably..BUT these shiny discs on either side lend a slick slippery center. The OPPOSITE of the Imperial Navy concentric rings/circles. IF this known advantage were to be sacraficed it had to be for a good reason. NOT cosmetic.

Advantages must be weighed against disadvantages . When you think about this from a strictly Military point of view..there is only one conclusion and that's the inevitable conclusion that these discs are highly reflective for one reason only. It was a visual cue.


If it had a significant , important use- why was it later eliminated from the Swiss magazine? Don, Anyone familiar with Military boards, manufacturing or design knows that perceptions of faults or advantages change over time. There are any number of reasons for it's elimination. It didn't work as well as hoped. It was found to be too costly. The reasons one could dream up are likely in the dozens. That it was once incorporated..THAT WAS for a reason.

Me and my big mouth! Interesting~ Two that chose neither!

Ok Jerry,
What was that compelling reason?

Just give us one or two reasons that have some logic behind them.

I agree that it was not to find them in the dark, but for the life of me can't think of a reason to put them there in the first place.

It also makes no sense to me that the concentric rings of the Navy mags are there because they make a "better"-meaning less slippery or firmer or ??- grip on the magazine.

Maybe there is no real reason!!!!! The End~~

I tried a little experiment. I assembled this little pile of magazines, both dish and ring based, and turned out the lights. Guess what? I couldn't see any of them! Seriously though, the ring based magazine preceded the dish based type which was presumably introduced by the Army because it was easier (read cheaper) to make. The Navy stayed with the ring based design, tradition you know.
Norm

Norm,
I can't find the Swiss mag - even with the light on!

Tradition is a good reason, but in the Swiss case, the first mags they received did not have the shiny disc. Maybe they just wanted to be able to distinguish the "better/newer" Swiss mags from the crappy old German magazines?

Don, I started with one reason and I remain a supporter of it. Several other reasonable theory's have emerged..That the disc is a visual cue cannot be doubted or discounted. That it is highly reflective supports my position. If it were meant to distinguish one era of magazine from another has no merit for a couple of reasons. A visual cue of that small degree requires no reflection. Just a muted color would suffice. Paint of almost any light color would do the trick. A highly reflective metal disc..was for an altogether different use.
Secondly..if German magazines were defective enough to be distinguished from Swiss..they would more likely be discarded or sold.
Nope..No other reason for this disc.
But I have had my say. I won't go on and on trying to convince anyone. If I have not made my case by now.. I never will.

I love them all!!