Reproduction Snail Drum - progress
 

GT and I have written at various times over the last year about getting the Numrich reproduction luger snail drum or trommel magazine to work.

Few, if any, work out of the box when received.

After much trial, error, re-trial, modification and hard work and patience in general, GT has achieved a working magazine with his up front modifications to an as-received(from Numrich) drum.

He and I sent the drum I bought last spring/summer back and forth about 4 times, each time zeroing in on the problem areas.

Yesterday I received a fresh off the GT line, re-worked Numrich drum, and I'm happy to say it worked first time without a hitch!:cheers:

I'll let GT comment on as many of the details as he wants.

But at the range today, a 32 round mag "dump" went without a hitch!:burnout:

You can tell a "GT" re-worked mag by the marking shown below.

These drums are pretty much exact copies of the 2nd type and work as the original, they are not serial numbered nor maker marked, and are of a little lighter gage steel.

In order for a drum to function well, not only does the drum have to be up to snuff, but so does the pistol. If the pistol is not reliable -100%- with the 8 round magazines- it will not be reliable with the drum mag.

Ammo is also important, both the loading(115g Winchester White box is reliable), but the OAL can't be too long either.

Here is what the drum and its marking look like.

And firing 32 rounds from a luger without reloading is really a cool experience!:evilgrin:

Drums & such!!!
 

Hi to all! Don pretty much has described where we are currently at in a nutshell! But, what little I have to add is as following....
At this point, I have G.T. revised the few customers drums I had in for repair, and have not yet received any range test reports, although, during bench testing, some have tried ammo OTHER than WW 115 ball target / range ammo, and so far, it simply won't work?... And to be truthful, we don't know why?.... All we can really track is OAL, and we feel that it has a lot to do with reliable drum function.. As well as reliable luger function...
I have sent the first five G.T. marked revised drums back to Numrich, and will follow with 10 more at the end of this next week! Followed by approx. 35 more end of May.... When we hit our stride we would like to be cranking out 50 G.T. Revised drums a month, but this might be hard to hit... just too many things that have to be done... Anyway, Don will be posting a picture and short description of the Drum loader assist strut so that you can see what it looks like and maybe how it functions as well....That's how its rolling here.... Best to all, til....lat'r....GT...:cheers:

Wow! Does Numrich really have that many 'on-hand'??? :eek:

It all sounds really cool, but I've never seen a drum except in pictures...Do you have a pic of one installed, so those of us who've never seen one can get an idea of its relative size??? :)

drums and such....
 

Hi Rich, yes, it would seem there are a lot of them to revise?...I am on a single drum to drum agreement, but my welding and black oxide refinishing sources are set up to do fifty at one time for efficiency, and also an attractive and all important qty. price break? Going to be interesting to see if I can deliver?....:jumper:...best to all, til...lat'r....GT....:cheers:

Awesome work! Its always exciting to see projects like this pan out!

Gerry, is Numrich selling these in two different listings??? With your revision, and without??? :confused:

This is the only listing I could find -

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/ad/980980.htm

Luger P-08 Snail Drum Set

The snail drum is undoubtedly the most hard-to-find accessory for the Luger P-08 pistol, as well as the most expensive. Original snail drums typically sell for a minimum of $1,000.00 or more in fairly poor condition. We are now offering a brand new snail drum set, which features an exact copy of the original Type II 32 round 9mm snail drum with blued finish and period markings. The set includes a 32 round 9mm snail drum, loading tool (necessary when loading the 9mm rounds), and an English reprint of the original 1917 German instructional manual. CLICK HERE TO READ A SPECIAL MESSAGE REGARDING THESE SNAIL DRUMS Note: The snail drums are not sold individually.

Snail Drum Magazine, 9mm, 32 Round & Loading Tool Set Can not be shipped to DC, NJ, MA (NY, MD, CA, CO, CT ,HI Restrictions apply )

Our Price: $399.95

sheepherder,

I don't think Numrich has offered these yet, I expect that will take some testing on their part, and then a while to change their offerings. They won't likely be at the same $399 price, would expect significantly higher, JMHO.

I will get the requested pictures for you today and post them here.

Hi Rich, Don is correct in that they will offer the revised drum under some new add campaign, so it is easily recognizable as a "GT Revised," or, "GT Edition," as soon as I can supply enough product for them to market..... I would hope maybe a small rush, and then a continued maintenance restocking pace, as fast as I can produce units? I don't know if they will continue to sell the "un-revised" drum??.. although I would suspect not as it is just a wasted exercise in expensive mailing back and forth? Other than the fact they (un-revised drum) probably won't work, they will break almost immediately as well!
The GT acceptance stamp in a circle mark will ONLY go on the 100% revised drums!!! That I'm pretty sure of, as no one in their right mind would try to do this in conjunction with what Don and I have already done???....
Anyway, this has been a lot of work, (and fun as well!) and hopefully it will result in a "bunch" of usable drums out there for the shooting enthusiast! More to come.... best to all, and thanks for the interest in following the thread and progress of this quest!.... Best to all, til...lat'r...GT...;)

Found a picture for you.

Attachment 57997

Wow, what an exciting accessory. Hats off to GT and those assisting on this project.This is on my wish list!

Thanks for the pic! ;)

I was interested to read in SAOTW that the 1918 Bergman MP181 also used this drum magazine.

Here are some more pictures of the drum installed, being loaded using the support strut invented by
GT, and of the support strut itself.

The drum takes a tremendous pressure when loading against the approx. 10 lb main spring, and if used long enough would wear out the mag notch or crack at the junction of the straight magazine part where it transitions to the drum. The loading support strut is adjustable to accomodate variances in drum dimensions. I tried it on my one original Bing drum and had to move the support block about 1/8" and it fit perfectly. There is one modification to the loader, which comprises replacing the pivot bolt with a longer one with a rounded stop nut for a connecting point for the strut, it is visible in one of the pictures, sorry it is a little fuzzy, long exposure and hand held the piece.

It appears the Germans did not worry about this in WWI, as they had hundreds of thousands of drums! And - as I said before the original was more robust, using heaver gage steel and no doubt better welding technique.

So today, the support strut prevents a problem developing, rather than solving a ready problem.

Loaded the new drum for the third time tonight, with 124gr S&B ball; will test fire tomorrow, but the loading was smoother just in these 3 or four times. I expect it to continue to smooth up.

I'll take it apart after tomorrows session, clean and re-lube, while inspecting for any sharp edgest that might need smoothing up for even better performance.

Here are some selected pictures.

Drum loader assist strut!
 

Many thanks to Don for the excellent pictures showing the loading assist strut in use!.....;)... Just a few little points that show in the photos so I can maybe explain a little bit about what they are, and why they are there?... In the pictures of the modified loading tool its self, you can also see two additional blackened flat washers. I installed them to tighten up the loader to improve the loading experience, by stiffening up the tool when installed and levered... It helps direct the loading energy, and is just more controllable under stress...
Also, the little black plastic block isn't just any plastic, it is Delrin, I think a Polyoxymethylene plastic that is stronger and more ridged than Nylon, a polyamide plastic.... Machinists love it as it machines about like aluminum for accuracy and sharp tooling cuts it like butter! But, it is expensive, especially in most suitable sizes?.... But perfect for my application on these loading assist tools... Also, the little knob at the top doesn't turn, I just haven't found anything better for right now although I'm looking, as the knob are an added expense as well!... Back to the old money versus time equation!....;).... Once you get familiar with what has to happen, it is a "snap" to use both literally and figuratively... And, as Don pointed out, its primary function is to minimize damage that might occur over time?... It compensates for things we cannot change, but improves the loading experience in an overall fashion in many ways! Thanks to Don, for his help, and thanks to all who have taken an interest in this thread!.... best to you all, til...lat'r....GT.....;)

G.T. Congrads! Its certainly a marked improvement on the old way alone!

G.T. you mentioned in one of your posts that you don't know why your reworked drum magazines won't work with anything but Win. White Box. In the current Handloader magazine Terry Wieland has articles about Luger handloading and truncated cone bullets. My 1937 Mauser which is picky about everything worked fine with this bullet shape. Good luck.

Greg B.

Very Cool, Don !

I think this would be nice in my carbine :)

GT, are you going to offer the loader? I am sorry, it was too much for me to read through everything tonight, as I am tired :)

GT may have said that in the past, or maybe said that WWB works best or maybe even reliably well. It does help to eliminate the ammo variable when trying any new magazine/pistol combo.

I've fired three x 32 rounds of S & B 124 g fmj this week without any issue.

I have also fired federal, off brand, and surplus canadian ammo from 1945 in my drum all 115g fmg of course. Your results may differ.

The key to getting the drum to work is a pistol that is 100% reliable with the 8 round magazines and which ever ammo you choose.

Ammo that is too long won't work well in a drum, nor an 8 round mag.

If the pistol is not 100% with a straight mag, a drum will only magnify any problems.:soapbox:

Ed,
the drum and loader come as a "set" from Numrich.

The strut is a GT offering.

loader - strut, same thing :evilgrin:

okay, not, but I was referring to the strut thingy

strut thingy!
 

Hi Ed! Yes, it, the strut assist kit, is offered by G.T. Specialties, they cost $55.00 for the kit, same price if you want to send me the loader to put the axil in for the mounting pin/stud?.... :jumper:... It actually helps quite a bit in the loading sequence of the drum operation... I developed it when we first started working out the problems on the drum mags.. The first thing we noticed was the mag catch notch was degrading badly from a point that was already marginal?... When we re-weld that area, we now use a hardening rod, same as what is used on blades and buckets to restore their working edges... harder, but not heat treated?... The strut still makes a big difference on loading stability and positive function.... :thumbup:... best to all, til...lat'r....GT:thumbup:

Thanks for the info on the Strut kit, G.T. I'm getting the impression that it might be a good idea for those who already own them to send any drum to you for a checkup and tuning even though it displays no immediate problems?

fit, function and durability!
 

Hi David, actually, the drums are, on a large percentage, not even usable right out of the box! They don't fit but just a few Lugers, they fail almost immediately with jams in the mag and in the gun...and almost immediately break as well!!! As far as I know, every one from first to last is the same, although they did seem to improve their assembly procedure a little as they went, but, all are basically the same parts, springs, etc.... When we're done with them, you really can barely tell it from an original? Just a little lighter gauge steel, and maybe a little softer steel as well... It takes a ton of work to make them function correctly..... But, we're doing it, one by one.... I have mainsprings already made for 50 units! :jumper:... once I reach that point... then it decision time... as quantity material order is the only feasible choice for the future.... (big numbers for old GT!...:eek:)... best to all, til....lat'r....GT.....:thumbup:

Went to the range with my numerich loader and trommel - could NOT get it to load.

I am looking on youtubes on this darn thing. Now, MY S&W 39 shot hollowpoints all day long :)

Ed

Ed, There's a sticky on Jans about loading...


These are George andersons directions to me for loading the German Luger 32 round snail drum.
Then my experiences with fireing it!

First turn the crank one full turn and lock with button. You may be able to hand load a few rounds while the crank is locked. I don't bother. Spray an ample amount of light oil into the magazine through the tube (you may want to do this a day before).

Next, lock the loader in place over the throat of the mag and begin feeding rounds into it you will quickly find that you need to push them down with the plunger after each round.

I would recommend that on the first go with each of your mags that you only go to 20 rounds. If they prove to function well then you may want to top them off.

After you have finished loading the mags and before you remove the loader unlock the crank and let it slowly return to a resting position. After folding the handle into place you should see that the end of the handle points to the number on the face of the mag that corresponds to the number of rounds loaded. With the loader still in place tap the magazine body a couple of times to get the spring to open and put full tension against the rounds loaded. You may want to spray more oil down the tube to lube the rounds a bit.

Remove the loader and you should be ready to go. Be sure to wear old clothes as there will be alot of oil splattering around the gun and mag. Have fun. geo


Those are great directions! First loaded the 20 rounds, no problems except for a small one. The drum is difficult to seat with the bolt closed. I suspect the tension is too great and will not push the top round down enough to lock.
Secondly, with the bolt locked back, the bolt will not go forward and strip a round...I could not detect why but if the mag is slightly lowered a round can be stripped, enter the chamber, the mag is seated and it fires all rounds without a hitch!
I first fired the 20, as you suggested, the mag handle pointed to the 20 as you said, then the 32 rounds were loaded and again the mag handle indicated the number loaded.
I fired it with the original stock and at around 100 yards it fired to point of aim. I did not re align the sight but shot over it rapid fire, I sure as hell would not want to be in front of that kind of firepower! This would be a good weapon to defend a machine gun emplacement or sweep a trench!
I thank you very much for the help George...Jerry

drum trouble!
 

Hi Ed, if it's one of the "GT" drums, please just send it to me, I will re-polish and test for N/C as long as it is one that "was supposed to work!" A few of the first ones released were not re-polished after "black oxide " coating and acid bath, (made them to rough" on the inside... They are ALL re-polished now!!!! One of those changes that we didn't realize when we scaled up... Send it to me, and I will make it correct.... best to you Ed, glad to be back, GT....:thumbup:

GT, Welcome home. I hope that our donations help with your medical cost. It's bad enough when one person is in an accident, let alone 3 of you. TH PS: Hopefully you can find a way to prevent the IRS from taking a bite, by putting it into a tax free medical fund. Please check with your accountant.

I would not worry about the IRS, gifts of that individual size would not show up anywhere.

The donors can't take a tax deduction either.

Well I'm new to this site went looking for info on Gunparts snail drum and found a post about improvements GT has been making, I ordered a drum over laborday weekend with the 20% off code on magazines.... a nice savings on the drum..... can't wait to get it in hand, I have a 1915 dated Artillery Luger that's a reblue/shooter & a repro holster & stock rig... this drum will fill the void at reasonable cost..... I missed a original drum two years ago at a local auction for 1000.00...... will still keep looking for an original .... but for now the repro is fine.... hope it comes with the "GT" mark! :) thanks for all the work and research into fixes on this!

http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL43.../412765749.jpg

If it does not come with the GT mark, send it back immediately and ask for one that does!:)

Thanks I'll do that if need be... still waiting for it to clear my bank account..... their card system screwed up I ended up with three charges for the same item... so it's playing hell with the checking account... called them the next day to delete the two charges... never a dull moment.... hopefully it will be here next week... :)

Now that is not nice, nor acceptable! Triple charging that is.

It was partly my fault they had my old address on file which messed thing up figured out the problem and fixed address but overall things got compounded hopefully it will clear up tonight....

Arrrg! They dumped all three charges! So tomorrow I will call and get it re-enstated thankfully I printed my receipt this is becoming an adventure

Ordering from Numrich can be interesting, especially if you order several of the same items. It may say that you ordered 10 and they will charge for 10, but if they only have 7 in stock they'll credit you for 3. Other times they'll charge the correct amount, but the order confirmation will still have the wrong amount on it. I have also seen my dealer discount being credited after the sale, almost like "Oops, we forgot to take it off". Then mix in a few returned item and you'll have an accounting nightmare on your hands. Many times you won't know how much you have actually paid until you have reconciled your bank account. :confused:

On the flip side, they are really good at fixing errors in the orders, and returns and exchanges are usually handled without any hiccups. I get the impression that they have realized that their ordering system sucks, and have perfected the art of damage control instead. :rolleyes:

O.K. ..... Just got off the phone with Gunparts my order wasn't canceled the charges went off my account it will be charged when item ships ..... So I hope to see this sometime next week... :cheers:

I was at the Numrich site a few of days ago and they were stating that they were having a BIG problem with their computer server, and that shipping would be delayed by 2-4 days over normal. Perhaps they have gotten things ironed out by now......we can always hope.

Will we ever find out about origin of this mag?

I don't think so; if you meant who made them for Numrich.

Not something they would broadcast, JMO.

There are no signs on the drum itself, so if "legally" marked as required; they were likely made in the USA- though I would not wager any sum of $ on it.:o

I took a look~ http://www.gunpartscorp.com/ad/980980.htm