Byf 41
 

I bought this Luger a while back and would like to know more about it and what you think it may be worth and some of its history. The pistol has some holster ware on its high points but a least 90% of the bluing remains. The serial number is 6410 U all the numbers match down to the firing pin and the magazine and the grips are numbered and have a very small 655eagle stamped in them. Its toggle is stamped BYF and 41 on top of barrel and is double stamped 655 and eagle swastika. The magazine is stamped 6410 U and has P08 on right side and fxo 37 eagle and 37 on top. The tool is marked 655 but it hard to read. the extra mag. is 1586C with 122 37 eagle on left side. The holster is in very good shape no cracks or tears or missing stitching its marked P08 on right and CEY 40 WaA47 eagle swastika on left.

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Verrry nice rig, John. I'd say you're looking at at least $2k, but we'll wait until the guys who know best give a little guidance.

Could use some info on the value and any other information

Like David says, nice rig and worth $2000 plus. You might want to surf the Simpsons, Ltd, site for a close match and approx. price.
It seems like asking prices are creeping up, but I'm not sure where the hammer actually falls on a lot of these.
You are limited to serious collectors, not the always-wanted-a-Luger crowd.
If I were selling it I'd start at $2500 plus, and see where it goes from there.
dju

Very nice find.

$2500 would be a good price the way things are today.

A dealer would want more.

The holster is a big plus as is the matching mag.

Very nice Luger.

You need to look into a couple of things. The matching numbered magazine's "1" digit has a different appearance than the "1" on your other magazine (which looks authentic). Try and post a picture of your matching magazine positioned just like the picture of your other one, showing the reflection profile of the shiny surface of the base. The bases should show a similar reflective surface profile.

The stitching on your holster is uneven. Post some additional photos of your holster, including the front strap and the side profile along the curved surface on the left side of the holster. Also the interior including the tool compartment. I'm not an expert on holster authenticity, but there are members here that are.

Marc

Please provide additional photos in different light of the serial number on the front of the frame. I am sorry to say that based on the photos you have provided so far, that I suspect that this frame has been renumbered at some time in its past.

Can't tell you much about the holster, and the gun seems like a nice one, although I'd like to see some more close up pictures of it.

Best.

You bought it, so what you paid is the value, isn't it?

Want to share that?

John. What don't you like? They look good to me.

Bob

The frame appears in the pics to not be dead flush with the front end of the barrel extension. And the flat surface does look a little rough, and this helps reveal that the numbers were stamped after the surface was finish ground. Is the grinding rough enough to make it suspect? The blend into the radius below looks pretty smooth to me, though, which tips the scale back towards original. Grinding to allow re-stamping usually alters the smooth tangential transition of surfaces in this area. I do not have enough experience to make a call on whether the upper/frame offset is big enough to make a difference. I'm curious, too, John!

Let me start this by saying this is all speculation, but is based on looking at LOTS of frame serial numbers and slide to frame relationships over the years... this is all just my opinion.

You have hit the largest 'tells' but let me refine them a bit from my perspective:

See the letter "A" in the first photo...The left side of the photo shows some edge damage of the frame. The vertical striations which are indicative of a "grind" probably by a belt sander, are smoothe in appearance along the edge which means to me that the grind took place after this damage occurred.

As you mentioned, the upper receiver protrudes past the front edge of the frame-(See "B")-another indication that the frame was ground. The fact that the protrusion appears to stick out a little further on the right of the photo than it does on the left tells me the grind was done freehand and not in a jig of any kind.

Further indication of freehand grind is the uneven grind line shown below the red line associated with my "C"

In photo number 2, the closeup of the stamped serial number, I have lightened the contrast a little to make the marks indicated by my "D" arrows show up a little better...which look to me like traces of a previous number on this frame. (there is also a mark above the top of the number "1" which I didn't point out when I marked up the photo.

Above the "D", you can see that the front edge of the frame (below the barrel) is normally somewhat sharp, and this one is as well, but the edge also shows some unevenness from the grind.

Lastly, I don't see and stamp halos at all on the frame, so the number would have to have been stamped before the grind, and not after the finishing operation...

Just my $0.02.... spend it wisely...:rolleyes:

I'll really look it over and let you guys know what I think. If I sell it I'm not sure what to say about it to a buyer? John

Here is a slightly later 41 byf in the "z" block for comparison. Three of the serial numbers are the same. I think the stampings match up well with campfooey's gun which leads me to believe that campfooey's Luger and magazine are fine.

I think A, B, D being OK.

C,,, may have some touch up.

I think it was just a bad day at the finishing wheel. The font, placement, etc. all seem right and it looks like the bad grind happened before it was marked. The same level of workmanship is evident on the second pistol that was posted. A look at the serial on the left side of the receiver would be nice.

This makes sense. On the other pistol posted, the "turned" corners look better, even with a slight file mark.

This makes me suspicious, too, though grain of the grinding both starts and stops, and continues thru the numbers. But I see what you've pointed out.

I see metal displaced by the stamping and not ground off, which makes me want to say ground, then stamped, then blued (re?).

Thanks for sharing, John!

Based on the photo of BYF 41 serial number "6241z" by Tharpo (Much appreciated!), and the remarkable similarity of the number "6" digit stamp, I will revise my opinion to say that my suspicions have been neutralized, and I feel that this frame has not been altered. Alanint has called it... a bad day on the production line, and nothing more. The number 6 stamp evidently "bounced" when the hammer struck causing the shadow image.

Thanks to all for your detailed evaluations of this piece, seems like it was educational for more than just the original poster...

I looked it over very close I think I din't get the best angles for my pictures. I using my cell phone and try to take the pictures on a angle so the numbers show up. I just figured if someone was going to go through all the work to grind and restamp the frame he would grind off the excess on the slide groves. They don't look out of place to me. The guy I got it from was a WWII vet and said he had it a long time but din't bring it back. So if it is altered it was years ago before Luger's were as popular as today

The holster code CEY stands for

Karl Budischovsky & Sohne, Osterreicheissche Lederindustrie AG, Vienna.

(The Standard Directory of Proof Marks, German ordinance codes - Gerhard Wirnsberger - a Green paperback)

Thanks for all the information I was a little worried about its authenticity I paid 2,200 so I had a reason to worry. I know its hard to really evaluate without having the pistol in hand. Thanks again for all your time and effort you gave me. John